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The History of Calvinism #37880
Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:06 PM
Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:06 PM
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Machaira Offline OP
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Interested in the history of Calvinism? Click here.


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Machaira] #37881
Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 PM
Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 PM
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Thank you for pointing out this lecture series, Jim. I'm currently listening to "Covenant Theology."

By the way, welcome to The Highway! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: CovenantInBlood] #37882
Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:07 PM
Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:07 PM
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Machaira Offline OP
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I'm glad you're enjoying the lectures. When you're finished with those, you might want to check out the free lectures available from Covenant Seminary. The courses are listed on the left side of the page. Click here.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Machaira] #37883
Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:07 PM
Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:07 PM
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Machaira said:
Interested in the history of Calvinism? Click here.


Jim, the people on the Highway discussion board have been very gracious and tolerant of me over the years concerning my posts not all have been good I know. But I have to say that I am not sure I agree with the good Dr. Daniel concerning his viewpoint of historic calvinism. I think it's a subject that needs to be researched rather that accepting his point of view.

Quote
Historic Calvinists teach that there are two aspects of this one atonement. The first is that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men everywhere (John 1:29, 3:16, 4:42, 6:33, 51; 2 Cor. 5:14, 19; I Tim. 2:4-6; John 2:2; 2 Pet 2:1). By His death on the Cross, He removed all legal barriers in case any man believes. His death for all men also purchased the common bounties of life for all men. It also secured a delay of judgment for them, as it were, though not a permanent one. All will one day be judged, but the fact that all men are not already in Hell is due to the atonement of Christ. Moreover, on the basis of this universal aspect of the atonement, salvation is offered freely to all men: "Come and dine, for all is ready!" (cf. Matt. 22:2-14; Luke 14:16-24). Also, Christ died for all men in this sense in order to be Lord of all men, whether alive or dead, elect or non-elect (Rom. 14:9; Phil. 2:10-11).

Most Evangelicals will agree with this analysis so far, but Calvinist go yet further. We teach that the death of Christ is sufficient for all men, but is efficient only for the elect. There is a sense in which Christ died for all, but there is a sense in which He died only for the elect. He died for all, but especially for the elect (1 Tim. 4:10). He purchased some blessings for all men, but all blessings for some men. Since the elect are scattered throughout the world and mingled together with the non-elect, Christ purchased the whole world with the special intent of owning the elect (cf. Matt. 13:44). This special aspect of the atonement is what is called Limited Atonement. Some call it Particular Redemption


Respectfully, William

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: William] #37884
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:06 PM
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Machaira Offline OP
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William,

I don't see anything wrong with what Dr. Daniel says in your quote. You'll need to be more specific.


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Machaira] #37885
Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:10 PM
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Jim,

He speaks of a limited atonement and particular redemption BUT with a double reference to the atonement which is historic amyraldianism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />


Hope you have/had a good Lord's day.
William


.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: William] #37886
Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:08 AM
Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:08 AM
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Machaira Offline OP
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I suggest that you read the following:

The Nature of the Atonement by Phil Johnson

Download the following PDF and see pages 99 - 104

Dr. Curt Daniel - Syllabus

Some quotes of historic Calvinists:

Dr. Eric Svendsen

... and lastly, Dr. Philip Ryken, who took over at Tenth Presbyterian Church for Dr. James Mongomery Boice here in Philadelphia, quotes Dr. Daniel extensively in his article on Reformed Theology:

Dr. Phillip Graham Ryken


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Machaira] #37887
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:23 AM
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:23 AM
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Jim, thank you for the links but with all do respect, Dr Daniel’s teaches a low low Calvinism so I have to disagree with some of his teachings.

Dr. Daniel’s believes that God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved and that God has given a sufficient common grace to believe.

The Doctor also believes that universal atonement is explicitly taught in the Heidelberg Catechism when the Catechism places much emphasis on satisfaction.*

*The Bible teaches a substitutionary atonement Dr. Daniel’s does not.


Have a good day
William

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: William] #37888
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:51 AM
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:51 AM
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Machaira Offline OP
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William,

Your original complaint was regarding the historical accuracy of Dr. Daniel's statement on the Reformers view of Limited Atonement. I demonstrated that Dr. Daniel was in fact accurate. Now it would seem that you're attempting to move the goal posts as it were. In other words, Dr. Daniel's official theological position has nothing to do with his ability to lay out the history of Calvinism or your original complaint. BTW, Curt Daniel is not saying that the Reformers believed in Hypothetical Universal Atonement when he speaks of the "two aspects" of their view of Limited Atonement. This fact is clearly spelled out in the links I provided.

Quote
William said:

But I have to say that I am not sure I agree with the good Dr. Daniel concerning his viewpoint of historic calvinism. I think it's a subject that needs to be researched rather that accepting his point of view.


Here's another problem:

Quote
William said:

. . . Dr. Daniel’s believes that God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved and that God has given a sufficient common grace to believe.

. . . *The Bible teaches a substitutionary atonement Dr. Daniel’s does not.


This is simply incorrect. Dr. Daniel's position is clearly that of "Particular Redemption." This fact can be heard plainly in the following lecture on Limited Atonement. His position is found between 11 and 14 minutes into the lecture. Right click the link below and choose "save as" to download.

Limited Atonement



Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Machaira] #37889
Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:02 AM
Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:02 AM
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Dear Jim,

Quote
Your original complaint was regarding the historical accuracy of Dr. Daniel's statement on the Reformers view of Limited Atonement. I demonstrated that Dr. Daniel was in fact accurate. Now it would seem that you're attempting to move the goal posts as it were. In other words, Dr. Daniel's official theological position has nothing to do with his ability to lay out the history of Calvinism or your original complaint.


Yes I guess I did move the goal posts but the reason is: I am not sure that Dr. Daniel’s ability to lay out the history of Calvinism is not based on his theological position.

Dr. Daniel states that the “universal atonement is explicitly taught in the Heidelberg Catechism” which is I believe is not accurate as you say you have demonstrated, the Catechism places much emphasis on satisfaction. which Dr. Daniel does not believe based on his position that "God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved" Hyper-Calvinism and John Gill, by Curt D. Daniel page 459.

The Bible teaches a substitutionary atonement and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that it can’t be both for all things that God predestined come to pass.

Enjoy your time on the Highway Discussion Board Jim there is good folks here that are more mature in the faith than me


William (Freshman)

.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: William] #37890
Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:29 AM
Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:29 AM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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William

I am a little hesitant to jump into this discussion, because there are others a lot more knowledgeable on this topic than I am.
I also want to say that I really haven't had time to look at the links provided. Therefore I am not completely sure if what I am about to say is valid to this discussion.
However, based on what has been discussed so far on this thread, it would seem to me that this is more about an inside debate between 5 point Calvinists that has been happening for centuries now.
Most of the time when I see this debate happening between 5 pointers, it usually has something to do with how one should interpret John 3:16.
Or it has to do with common grace and what is actually provided by common grace.
I have been on the Highway for quite a few years now and these two things have been discussed a few times that I am aware of and probably quite a few more.
All 5 pointers believe in limited atonement, but some (Spurgeon among them) believe that John 3:16 is talking about a general love for all mankind. However even they wouldn't go as far as to say this love was effectual for all mankind. They would say effectual love is only for God's elect. Hence many have said that the death of Christ is sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect.

Of course this argument is rejected by many (most on this board) in favor of saying that the word “world” in John 3:16 in context is talking about specific people from all over the world. They say this because the context of John 3:16 is specifically talking about salvation.
All this to say that I don’t believe this has anything to do with historic Amyralianism, who believe in 4 of the 5 points.

Tom

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Tom] #37891
Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:09 AM
Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:09 AM
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Machaira Offline OP
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Tom,

You hit the nail square on the head. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In a nutshell . . . Curt Daniel was merely pointing out in his History of Calvinism that there has always been an in-house debate among "classic" Calvinists over Limited Atonement/Common Grace.


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Tom] #37892
Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:18 PM
Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:18 PM
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Tom,

Nice post thanks. The only thing I would like to add is this.


This is the Reformed offer of the Gospel.

"The Canons" Article 5. Moreover, the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel.


This is not the reformed offer of the gospel.

"God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved"


-------------
William



Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you,and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: William] #37893
Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:08 AM
Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:08 AM
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Tom Offline
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William
Quote
"God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved"


I haven't heard/read anyone on either side of this issue say that.
Have you Machaira?

Tom

Re: The History of Calvinism [Re: Tom] #37894
Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:08 AM
Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:08 AM
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Machaira Offline OP
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Quote
Tom said:
William
Quote
"God loves you, Christ died for you, and now God pleads with you to believe so that you may be saved"


I haven't heard/read anyone on either side of this issue say that.
Have you Machaira?


Good morning Tom, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />

I don't remember hearing those exact words, but there are those within the Reformed camp, (past and present), who believe in God's universal love for man, and His desire for all without exception to be saved. They would also contend that this is part and parcel of the doctrine of "common grace." This particular discussion also includes the debate over whether or not God has "two wills," i.e., a will of precept/command and a will of decree. I think this is what William is thinking about. I don't understand his combativeness though. No one is arguing for either position in this thread.

If anyone is interested in what this debate over "common grace" is about, click on the link below to hear a formal debate.

"Is the Doctrine of Common Gr...ard Mouw versus Prof. David J. Engelsma


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

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