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Why are people reprobated? #40601
Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Why are people reprobated? Anyone care to answer?


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40602
Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:33 PM
Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Why are people reprobated? Anyone care to answer?

1) Because it was God's eternal will to not save them unto His own glory.
2) Because they are sinners and deserving of eternal judgment.

Assuming that one holds to biblical Calvinism, that answer can take on more "meat" depending upon whether one ascribes to Infralapsarianism or Supralapsarianism.

And... [img]http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/welcome_scroll.gif" align="absmiddle[/img]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40603
Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:19 PM
Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to The Highway! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

I answer that some are reprobated for the glory of God, i.e., that He might display His just displeasure against sinners and by contrast His consummate mercy upon the elect:

Quote
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24)


Or are you getting at something else by your question?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: Pilgrim] #40604
Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:36 AM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Why are people reprobated? Anyone care to answer?

1) Because it was God's eternal will to not save them unto His own glory.
2) Because they are sinners and deserving of eternal judgment.

Assuming that one holds to biblical Calvinism, that answer can take on more "meat" depending upon whether one ascribes to Infralapsarianism or Supralapsarianism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And... [img]http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/welcome_scroll.gif" align="absmiddle[/img]


Thanks for the welcome; my reading of Romans 9 would suggest option 1 is correct. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: CovenantInBlood] #40605
Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to The Highway! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

I answer that some are reprobated for the glory of God, i.e., that He might display His just displeasure against sinners and by contrast His consummate mercy upon the elect:

Quote
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24)


Or are you getting at something else by your question?


Thanks for the welcome; I suppose what I am asking is are they non-elect reprobated as men or as sinners? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40606
Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:32 AM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Thanks for the welcome; my reading of Romans 9 would suggest option 1 is correct. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so it would at least appear you hold to the supralapsarian view. Fine! Is there any particular reason you asked the question? Historically, the majority view has been Infralapsarian but those holding to Supralapsarianism were not excluded, shoved to the fringes, etc. However, there have been some individuals and groups/denominations who have taken their supra view to extremes which effected other doctrines in such a way that it did result in strong opposition, schism and splits, usually instigated by the supras.

Just in case you haven't read Bavinck on the subject, you can do so here:

- Suprlapsarianism and Infralapsarianism

- Controversy in regard to Infra- and Supralapsarianism

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: Pilgrim] #40607
Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:17 PM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Thanks for the welcome; my reading of Romans 9 would suggest option 1 is correct. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so it would at least appear you hold to the supralapsarian view. Fine! Is there any particular reason you asked the question? Historically, the majority view has been Infralapsarian but those holding to Supralapsarianism were not excluded, shoved to the fringes, etc. However, there have been some individuals and groups/denominations who have taken their supra view to extremes which effected other doctrines in such a way that it did result in strong opposition, schism and splits, usually instigated by the supras.

Just in case you haven't read Bavinck on the subject, you can do so here:

- Suprlapsarianism and Infralapsarianism

- Controversy in regard to Infra- and Supralapsarianism

[Linked Image]


Thanks again for your help; I don't know enough about the whole infra-supra debate to say too much, but from reading Robert Reymond I thought supra was stronger. The reason I ask this question is I am going to preach on Romans 9.

However, I am aware (as you say) of others taking this to extremes; but I still maintain the free/well meant offer of the gospel is Biblical. Though this is not something that can be reconciled with human reason, imho. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40608
Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:14 PM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
DanielRitchie said:

Thanks for the welcome; I suppose what I am asking is are they non-elect reprobated as men or as sinners? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />


Daniel,

That, I believe, involves the supra- & infralapsarian debate, as Pilgrim has suggested. I lean more toward infralapsarianism, i.e., that God made his decrees of election & reprobation in consideration of a fallen humanity. But I'm not certain that we can come to a sure conclusion between these two positions from the scriptural evidence.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40609
Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:01 PM
Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
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Posts: 13,471
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Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Thanks again for your help; I don't know enough about the whole infra-supra debate to say too much, but from reading Robert Reymond I thought supra was stronger. The reason I ask this question is I am going to preach on Romans 9.

Raymond would say that as he holds to Supralapsarianism. giggle However, historical facts clearly contradict the idea that supra was the mainstay of the Church. For example, the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith consisted of men in both camps with the supra group heavily overshadowed by the infra camp. The same could be said for those men who were involved with the "Quinquarticular Controversy", aka: The Canons of Dort.

Quote
DanielRitchie said:
However, I am aware (as you say) of others taking this to extremes; but I still maintain the free/well meant offer of the gospel is Biblical. Though this is not something that can be reconciled with human reason, imho.

Yes, this is one of two major doctrines which come under fire from the extremists. And this one in particular has been abused/distorted the other way as well. Most of us here who are traditionally Reformed believe that the Gospel is to be preached to every man, woman and child on this earth and that it is God's command that all repent and believe upon Christ unto salvation. We are confident that ALL whom God has elected to be saved by grace in Christ through faith WILL come and none will be lost. It is the Holy Spirit Who does the calling (efficacious) as we are faithful in fulfilling our responsibility to preach the Gospel.

May the Lord open your mind and heart as you study and prepare to break the Word of Life to those in attendance.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: DanielRitchie] #40610
Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:30 AM
Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 88
dallas, TX
jadeitedrake0 Offline
Journeyman
jadeitedrake0  Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 88
dallas, TX
You plan on preaching from Roman's 9? Man, you're brave!

Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: jadeitedrake0] #40611
Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:57 AM
Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Quote
jadeitedrake0 said:
You plan on preaching from Roman's 9? Man, you're brave!


I thought it would be good to preach on a hard text. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/chatter.gif" alt="" />


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Re: Why are people reprobated? [Re: Pilgrim] #40612
Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:00 AM
Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
DanielRitchie Offline OP
Plebeian
DanielRitchie  Offline OP
Plebeian
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Saintfield, Northern Ireland
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
DanielRitchie said:
Thanks again for your help; I don't know enough about the whole infra-supra debate to say too much, but from reading Robert Reymond I thought supra was stronger. The reason I ask this question is I am going to preach on Romans 9.

Raymond would say that as he holds to Supralapsarianism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> However, historical facts clearly contradict the idea that supra was the mainstay of the Church. For example, the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith consisted of men in both camps with the supra group heavily overshadowed by the infra camp. The same could be said for those men who were involved with the "Quinquarticular Controversy", aka: The Canons of Dort.

Quote
DanielRitchie said:
However, I am aware (as you say) of others taking this to extremes; but I still maintain the free/well meant offer of the gospel is Biblical. Though this is not something that can be reconciled with human reason, imho. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

Yes, this is one of two major doctrines which come under fire from the extremists. And this one in particular has been abused/distorted the other way as well. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Most of us here who are traditionally Reformed believe that the Gospel is to be preached to every man, woman and child on this earth and that it is God's command that all repent and believe upon Christ unto salvation. We are confident that ALL whom God has elected to be saved by grace in Christ through faith WILL come and none will be lost. It is the Holy Spirit Who does the calling (efficacious) as we are faithful in fulfilling our responsibility to preach the Gospel. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

May the Lord open your mind and heart as you study and prepare to break the Word of Life to those in attendance.

In His grace,


Thanks for your encouragement. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/compute.gif" alt="" />


Daniel Ritchie
Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Saintfield, Northern Ireland

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