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Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Johan] #42617
Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:15 PM
Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:15 PM
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Ohio, USA
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Originally Posted by Johan
Originally Posted by Robert
"When you deal with these references with sound exegesis and reasoning from the Scriptures, bring forth your rebuttal, if you can. wink"

Have you done the same with the opposing viewpoints?
I'll see if I can gather some! Fair is fair, Pilgrim!


You should definitely not try the apostle Paul, Augustine, or Calvyn!

Johan


According to Johan, yea. Calvin and Augustine were not infallible men.

Re: The importance of going to church [Re: carlos123] #42618
Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:23 PM
Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos123
Originally Posted by Johan

You should definitely not try the apostle Paul, Augustine, or Calvyn!


So now proper exegesis becomes a matter of which stalwark of the faith we can bring on our side of any argument?

May I suggest that we drop the stalwarks and just focus on the what the Bible says in the plain meaning of what is written (unless there is contextual support for taking something figuratively).

I am concerned that we will end up in a never ending soup of stalwarkism and reference to who said what if we start discussing things based not so much on what the Bible actually says but on how many stalwarks we can find to support our respective positions.

Carlos


Great posts, Carlos. I too am against "stalwartism" (however, you must drop the k, replace it with a t). We don't know what Augustine and Calvin would say with today's scholarship, either.
In Christ,\Robert

Last edited by Robert; Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:24 PM.
Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Robert] #42619
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:13 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:13 AM
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San Diego, California, U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by Robert
[quote=carlos123]
Great posts, Carlos. I too am against "stalwartism" (however, you must drop the k, replace it with a t). ...


That's a good one! I can see it now...me preaching at Balboa Park in San Diego...not that I have done so mind you but have been considering it...

"To all you stalwarts out there! Thus saith the Lord..." LOL.

I think I like stalwarkism better even if it is a non-existant word. Stalwartism sounds like some kind of horribly deformed defect in a human being. Akin to a big wart of a defect on their body or something LOL. Yuk!

By the way this forum is a real pain to use. Maybe I don't know how to use it.

Everytime I come here to see a post I must then...

1. Go up and click on the Log in link.
2. Login.
3. Press the back browser button to get back to the Login (after login I am taken to the main forum index page).
4. Press the back browser button again to get back to the post I wanted to see.
5. Press the browser refresh button to have the Reply, Quote and other buttons show up now that I am logged in.
6. Page down on the page to finally find the post I wanted to reply to.

Whew! A lot of work.

Is there not some way for the email that informs me of a new post to just take me to that post and have me click on a Reply button which then takes me to a Login and then automatically takes me to the post in question again?

Without my having to do all this backtracking and refreshing?

Carlos

Re: The importance of going to church [Re: carlos123] #42621
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 AM
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San Diego, California, U.S.A.
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I've started a new thread under the Theological section of the forum if anyone wants to join me there. The subject is "Biblically, what does the word Church mean?".

Carlos

PS. Wow! This short post is a record for me!


Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Robert] #42622
Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:34 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:34 AM
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South Africa
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Originally Posted by Robert
Originally Posted by Johan
Originally Posted by Robert
"When you deal with these references with sound exegesis and reasoning from the Scriptures, bring forth your rebuttal, if you can. wink"

Have you done the same with the opposing viewpoints?
I'll see if I can gather some! Fair is fair, Pilgrim!


You should definitely not try the apostle Paul, Augustine, or Calvyn!

Johan


According to Johan, yea. Calvin and Augustine were not infallible men.


Robert, you still have to bring your evidence!

Doing what you asked for [Re: carlos123] #42623
Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:16 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:16 AM
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The Bronx, NY
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Originally Posted by carlos123
Now why are we not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead our get togethers as a Church today.


So let's try it out. Since you are clearly troubled by over-emphasis on public worship by the church of Christ on the Lord's day, preferring to equate all meetings of saints, you can hardly object to the gifts of the Holy Spirit being in operation here--especially since "here" is not an actual permanent locale of the type you are so allergic to-- since "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7).


First, an "utterance of wisdom" (1 Cor. 12:8).

Much of your time here has been spent making slanderous and unsubstantiated criticisms against the majority of elders of the church of Christ (in North America, you said) based merely upon their serving in what you derisively term "organized churches" (as if "disorganized churches" are to be preferred) or "Sunday churches" (as if the 99%+ of historic Christians who have worshipped only on the Lord's Day--guess what, it IS biblical--were in error and you, with your fellow Campingites, were the sole remnant of spiritual Israel), to wit:
Originally Posted by carlos123
I don't go to a building on Sundays, sit there for a couple of hours, and watch one man exercising his gifting in front of hundreds of the rest of us who must sit mute as spectators.
There is something very wrong with organized Church today.
It is nothing like New Testament Church was.
:
When I have tried to be a part of traditional Churches I have without exception bumped into the conflict between what is (in current practice) and what I see in the New Testament. From wanting to baptize people in water in public (instead of in a Church baptistry) to wanting myself and others to be free to share what the Lord might lay on our hearts...the practice of New Testament Christianity doesn't fit into the traditions of most existing Churches today. Rather one must put on a straight jacket of Church traditions in order to be able to fit in.


Sir, repent of your slanderous accusation of the innumerable elders of the church of Christ who are laying down their lives to shepherd the sheep of God.


Second, an "utterance of knowledge" (1 Cor. 12:8). You have repeatedly demonstrated an absurd, contradictory ambivalence toward the authority of elders, on the one hand claiming that their authority is not of God when exercised among the assembled saints on the Lord's Day, to wit:
Originally Posted by carlos123
At most Sunday emphesizing Churches I am expected to go and sit and listen and learn and give some money perhaps.
But I must sit and stand and sing and then sit back down in line with what is expected of me.
Not by God but by the Church leaders of that particular assembly.
Much of what passes for Church today is about control.
About controlling the sheep so that things happen according to an expected norm of supposed order in the Church.

and on the other hand, clearly desiring to to exercise the authority of elders yourself, to wit:
Originally Posted by carlos123
...get together with Christians throughout the week to counsel them, to love on them, to help them in their every day needs and to otherwise shepherd them.
I consider myself to be their servant and aim for the bottom in pushing them ahead of me.
:
I can certainly go and baptize someone in the nearest lake, pond, pool, or stream that has water.
There is no requirement for a baptism to occur among a group of witnesses.
:
Do we have to be organized somehow in order to obey God with his respect to His wanting us to baptize others and participate in communion?


Sir, repent of your divided heart in despising the authority of God as exercised through the elders of His church while at the same desiring to exercise that same authority yourself.

Open your eyes, man! Your earliest negative portrayal of elders came in your first post, with a complaint against "watch(ing) one man exercising his gifting in front of hundreds of the rest of us who must sit mute as spectators". How is that different from what you have done yourself to large numbers of readers of this site who can not have profited at all from your self-exalting ramblings against the "Churchianity" which you alone appear to have escaped?


Third, a "discerning of spirits" (1 Cor. 12:10). You have rejected wise counsel proferred in this essential area of doctrine, placing your own experience and preferences above the collective wisdom of generations rooted in the whole counsel of God, while repeatedly acting as your own witness that you are submissive to the entire body of Christ, to wit:
Originally Posted by carlos123
I am not rebellious to authority, having an independent spirit, or otherwise.
:
Incidentally if there is rebellion in my heart may the Lord cause it to come to the surface that I might repent from it for it would be most displeasing to God not to mention hypocritical of me to go around with such in my heart.
:
I am wondering what I said that might lead you to believe that I have an independent spirit?
I am not asking from the standpoint of defending myself.
Who knows.
Maybe the Lord wants to point out something in me that needs attention but I am going to have a hard time seeing it as clearly as you seem to see it.


Sir, repent of the bitterness of this false humility which boldly and publicly draws attention to your own submission to God, while your own responses show that you are at best hesitant to accept any teaching which runs counter to your own desires.


Fourth, "teaching" (1 Cor. 12:29). While others here have labored to instruct you in many particular aspects of the role of the church, often with little gratitude for their efforts, there is one area that you seem extremely ignorant of, preferring to wrongly imply that the entire doctrine of the church is found in a handful of New Testament texts, to wit:
Originally Posted by carlos123
But Heb 10:25 does not say that I or other Christians must all get involved in the visible representation of Church today most commonly known as the Sunday Church service?
At least to my reading of that passage in context.
How does it read to you?


In the big picture, that is in the history of redemption from Genesis to Revelation, the ecclesia was always called out to be together, assembled in a locale, for its highest form of worship, instruction, reception of the means of grace, prayer, discipline, equipping for service and fellowship. That is such a GIVEN that the New Testament hardly needed to emphasize the point. What was chief among the terrors of the Law? To be CUT OFF--removed from the assembly, apart from which there was no hope of receiving the blessings of belonging to Jehovah.

Sir, repent of this running headlong, and encouraging others to do the same, into the death inherent in the attitude "I am the church", and plead the Lord to supply the true humility which places the benefit to your brothers and sisters found in assembling with them ahead of your own desires.


Fifth, "administration" (1 Cor. 12:28). As your posts have multiplied over the past few days I have been curious to find what it was about your style that seemed so unique at this site, and whether it had any relation to the content of your posts. Being unable to let something like this rest, I spent most of last night running several style analyses, and was not completely surprised by what I found.

My analysis used non-quoted text in all posts ranging from your first, #42525 through what was the latest at the time I began the analysis, #42592. Because I was simultaneously interested in some curious confluences of your posts with those of Robert--hmm, imagine that--I broke the posts into 3 groups: your own, Robert's, and everyone else's in this thread.

Here's what I found.

A) breaking the posts into separate words and then ranking their occurences,
the "Non-Carlos/Robert" group had the following common words most frequently:

1. 290 the
2. 168 of
3. 149 to
4. 126 and
5. 118 in
6. 100 is
7. 92 that
8. 74 a
9. 68 you
10. 66 are
11. 61 I


Notice especially that ranking of that little word "I", used eleventh in frequency.
Now here are your own frequencies:


1. 404 the
2. 396 to
3. 307 I


The word you used more than all but two others was "I" !!!! That's what imparts the whole tone of your posts!

Not to be outdone, Robert managed, in his much smaller posts, to use "I" even more
frequently than yourself:


1. 29 to
2. 24 I


B) the same data, expressed as percentages of all words used,


others 1.34%
carlos123 3.11%
Robert 3.81%


So on a word-by-word basis, both you and Robert felt compelled to refer to yourself more than twice as frequently as the other posters.

C) finally, using whole sentences rather than individual words, the analysis shows a similar pattern. In percentages of all sentences, the word "I" was used in


others 16%
carlos123 44%
Robert 37%


This confirms the sense I have had since your earliest posts that your motivation to present your own thoughts, ideas, convictions, interpretations and experiences has far outweighed your submission to the truth of the Word of God in this area of the authority that the Lord Christ has assumed both over and through His church.

Sixth, "exhortation" (Rom 12:8).

Sir, refrain from further attempts at teaching in this area until you have learned, from the Scriptures and godly men who have rightly divided them, to love the beauty of the proper assembling of the saints, and who would rather die than cheapen or abandon it.


In Christ,
Paul S
Re: Doing what you asked for [Re: Paul_S] #42624
Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:42 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:42 AM
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Georgia, USA
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Amen, Paul.Bullseye.


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Re: Using this Board [Re: carlos123] #42627
Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:01 AM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:01 AM
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Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
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Quote
carlos123 laments
By the way this forum is a real pain to use. Maybe I don't know how to use it.

Everytime I come here to see a post I must then...

1. Go up and click on the Log in link.
2. Login.
3. Press the back browser button to get back to the Login (after login I am taken to the main forum index page).
4. Press the back browser button again to get back to the post I wanted to see.
5. Press the browser refresh button to have the Reply, Quote and other buttons show up now that I am logged in.
6. Page down on the page to finally find the post I wanted to reply to.

Whew! A lot of work.

For someone who presents himself as being computer savvy, I am rather amused to read the above. giggle

1. When you login to this board, as with most every other board online, you have the option to check the box, "remember me", which will save a 'cookie' to your HDD. In addition, people using any recent version of Internet Explorer will be prompted to save the login information as well, thus another 'cookie' is saved to your HDD.

2. Returning to the board directly from a Favorite/Bookmark or via typing in the URL or by clicking on the link in the notification e-mail will result in you being automatically logged in.

This is not rocket science, nor is this method unique to this board. [Linked Image]

3. IF you disallow all cookies or delete them at the end of the day, then of course you will have to manually login at each visit; an identical process shared by all BB software.

BTW, there is a HELP Forum here where such questions are answered. Posting consternations without an request for help usually go unanswered. wink


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Re: Using this Board [Re: Pilgrim] #42628
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:04 PM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:04 PM
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San Diego, California, U.S.A.
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Let's see I am now considered self-centerd because of the numerical frequency with which I have used the word "I"? Notwithstanding that I have used that word as short for "it seems to me based on my understanding of the Bible" or "Christ who lives in me seems to have indicated so and so to me" or even "at my present state of grace". "I" just seemed a whole lot shorter and less prone, in it's use, to wear my hand out from typing.

And it would seem now that I am also lacking in true computer skills as I, oops...as was previously stated by, .... I don't know what other word to use here...me...hmmm, by me I guess. Because...well...because I did not realize or use a remember me link, something that is not used by...I am trying real hard to not use the word "I" again but it's awefully tough to do so, by me at any other forum without difficulty.

So given the above I think it best if I take my leave of this forum and bid you all farewell.

The spirit behind the last two posts strikes me as decidedly not at all stemming from the Holy Spirit that I know. Not that those posting as such are not Christians. Only that they were perhaps not walking in love at the moment of their postings. Something I too have at times past perhaps been guilty of myself.

I apologize if I have not been acting in love in any way, shape, or form here and would ask for your all's forgiveness if that has indeed been the case.

I wish everyone well.

If anyone wants to stay in contact with me please send me a direct message and I will be more than happy to provide my email address to anyone that wants it.

Please disregard the other topic I started.

Thanks.

Carlos

Re: Using this Board [Re: carlos123] #42630
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:53 PM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:53 PM
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Eastern Maryland
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I'm sorry you "feel" that way Carlos, shouldn't 1 Cor. 13 come into play here? I have been in disagreement often on this board, but that is what is good about it, giving a person the opportunity to work through issues and doctrines. I never am worried about convincing someone of what I say, that is the Holy Spirit's work, and sometimes I am the one convinced. Feelings shouldn't be part of it, posts can easily be misunderstood. You must do what you believe God would have you do, but the forum has always been kind and loving even when I did take things personally.

I saw that some of the posts were personal against you, but that is where you show the patience of Christ. I just believe sometimes we all just use poor judgment it is part of the sin still working in us. Recognize it for what it is and then go forward. Personal attacks come, but come on, it is just a discussion board, a beneficial one at that. If you look at the posts in reply to me, you'll see I'm not a stranger to negative comments either, but they are just that. Nobody on this discussion board knows enough about me to make certain statements and when they come, they are taken for what they are and I go on.




Last edited by hisalone; Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:03 PM.

Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Robert] #42632
Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:51 PM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:51 PM
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Posts: 2,040
Virginia
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Virginia
Originally Posted by Robert
How do you know that the Eunuch's situation was unique? Surely Acts doesn't give us a blow by blow account of conversions. Maybe the eunuch teaches us that a crowd is not necessary? Surely they could have traveled to an assembly.


Robert, the eunuch's situation is unique on its face! Phillip is given direct command from the Lord to travel the road from Jerusalem to Gaza, and when he comes across the eunuch the Lord commands him to approach the chariot. Then, immediately after baptizing the eunuch, Phillip is carried away by the Spirit to Azotus. How "ordinary" could the situation be?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: The importance of going to church [Re: CovenantInBlood] #42634
Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:59 PM
Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:59 PM
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Ohio, USA
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Originally Posted by CovenantInBlood
Originally Posted by Robert
How do you know that the Eunuch's situation was unique? Surely Acts doesn't give us a blow by blow account of conversions. Maybe the eunuch teaches us that a crowd is not necessary? Surely they could have traveled to an assembly.


Robert, the eunuch's situation is unique on its face! Phillip is given direct command from the Lord to travel the road from Jerusalem to Gaza, and when he comes across the eunuch the Lord commands him to approach the chariot. Then, immediately after baptizing the eunuch, Phillip is carried away by the Spirit to Azotus. How "ordinary" could the situation be?


I don't profess to know what God is teaching from such an event. It could mean more than one thing it seems to me.

Last edited by Robert; Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:01 AM.
Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Robert] #42636
Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:54 AM
Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:54 AM
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Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Robert,

I perceive an avoidance to deal with the issue which YOU originated, i.e., taking the event of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch as being paradigmatic for where/how baptism is to be done. CovenantInBlood challenged your view showing that the event recorded is, in fact, unique on its face. You then respond saying, "I don't profess to know what God is teaching from such an event.", which clearly contradicts what you originally asserted. The issue isn't what the passage "means", but rather how it is to be taken, i.e., a unique event which God providentially brought to pass as part of the infant Church's expansion by the inclusion of Gentiles, OR it is to be taken typically, i.e., a paradigm event which the Church is to model perpetually.

So, let me echo CovenantInBlood's question so as to bring this back to a cogent discussion: "How 'ordinary' could the situation be?"; given the explanation offered?

Thanks! grin


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Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Pilgrim] #42639
Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:35 AM
Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:35 AM
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Posts: 31
Ohio, USA
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Robert,

I perceive an avoidance to deal with the issue which YOU originated, i.e., taking the event of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch as being paradigmatic for where/how baptism is to be done. CovenantInBlood challenged your view showing that the event recorded is, in fact, unique on its face. You then respond saying, "I don't profess to know what God is teaching from such an event.", which clearly contradicts what you originally asserted. The issue isn't what the passage "means", but rather how it is to be taken, i.e., a unique event which God providentially brought to pass as part of the infant Church's expansion by the inclusion of Gentiles, OR it is to be taken typically, i.e., a paradigm event which the Church is to model perpetually.

So, let me echo CovenantInBlood's question so as to bring this back to a cogent discussion: "How 'ordinary' could the situation be?"; given the explanation offered?

Thanks! grin


I am not sure how unique that it was given that we don't have any idea of how often this happened. Acts doesn't detail every single conversion that occurred.

Re: The importance of going to church [Re: Robert] #42640
Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:50 AM
Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted by Robert
I am not sure how unique that it was given that we don't have any idea of how often this happened. Acts doesn't detail every single conversion that occurred.

Speculation about that which is not revealed has led many astray and/or to fail to embrace that which IS revealed. (cf. Deut 29:29) Jesus Christ taught His disciples ALL that the Father had given Him. Paul failed not to preach the "whole counsel of God". John admits "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written." (Jh 21:25)

The Lord God by His Spirit has put into writing ALL that is necessary for our faith and practice. There is a divine and perfect reason no other such account has been recorded in Scripture. Thus, we are to receive what is revealed as being sufficient for our "teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." (2Tim 3:16) The account is unique, as designed and purposed by God. Further, IF one was to ignore its uniqueness and construct a polity concerning who, what and where baptism should be administered, it would have to be in harmony, via the Analogy of Faith, with the other historical narratives and didactic passages which teach that the Spirit has assigned Elders to be responsible for this task. wink


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