Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of "$75" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Posts: 3,084
Joined: September 2003
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,273
Posts53,182
Members964
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,021
Tom 4,035
chestnutmare 3,084
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,818
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 21
Tom 14
Ruben 10
Robin 2
Recent Posts
New update on forum software
by Ruben - Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:12 PM
All Glory to God
by NetChaplain - Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:40 AM
Rage Against the Unvaccinated!
by tomatoetom - Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:24 AM
Strength via Weakness
by NetChaplain - Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 AM
Good News for a Change
by Pilgrim - Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:53 PM
Doxology
by chestnutmare - Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:41 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
#43026 Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3
MrDon Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3
I posed a question one day at a church that I was attending. It was a Calvary Chapel. I asked if there was any such thing as a free will. The answer I got was of course.

I then stated, if there was a free will then we are not bonded by sin, because a free will would mean that there is absolutely nothing influencing our decision. The response that I got from an individual was. It all depends on how you define free will. (This brought me back to the Clinton years). I left wondering how one could manipulate language and words instead of looking at the possibility of an error in their theology. I was later asked by someone If I was trying to think too much instead of being led by the spirit. In other words I should just drink the cool aid.

I have not returned to that church since after two years in attendence. Still not able to find a good Christ centered church to attend.


MrDon #43029 Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,084
Annie Oakley
Offline
Annie Oakley
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,084
Dr Don,

Welcome to The Highway! Six years ago, I too was in a similar position as I could not find a faithful church in SW New Hampshire. So, I posted a query on the Church Locator Forum and was directed to the church I am in now. I might suggest you do the same. It is difficult to find faithful churches these days but there are some and perhaps other members of the board could make suggestions.



The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
MrDon #43030 Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,012
The Boy Wonder
Offline
The Boy Wonder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,012
Have you looked at the Church Locator here in the forum? That might be a good starting place.

-Robin

MrDon #43031 Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Head Honcho
Online Content
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by MrDon
I have not returned to that church since after two years in attendence. Still not able to find a good Christ centered church to attend.
Well, MrDon... then you should jump right down to the Church Locator Forum and put in a request. wink

It helps if you give some particulars of the type of church (Calvinistic only of course) you are looking for, e.g.,:
- Credo/Paedo Baptist
- Worship style (hopefully traditional) giggle
- Location
- Any other information you deem helpful

There has been a very good success rate for those who have used that forum to find a church. BigThumbUp


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Pilgrim #43278 Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 48
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 48
Hi MrDon, I don't think that human freedom can be defined as the absence of outside influences, since men were created to be in a relationship with the Trinity.

If we are truly "partakers in the divine nature", then we must partake in God's freedom. Cf. 2 Pt 1:4.

Here is something the Council of Trent said about human freedom:

[CCC#1993] Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

Last edited by patricius79; Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:06 PM.
patricius79 #43390 Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
So you asked the Calvary Church members a question as if they had the freedom to answer correctly. Obviously, God predestined them to answer in the way they answered, and some here might find is blasphemous to assert that they had the free will to answer correctly.

MikeL #43391 Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
The funniest thing about a Calvinist evangelist is the fact that he or she will spread the gospel and end the sales pitch as if some kind of decision could or should be made. Again, all decisions are made by God, so to assume the person being evangelized has the ability to respond or make some kind of choice is absurd....according to Calvinism.

Or is it possible to be scriptural about free will, and illogical about he implications of that belief? In other words, aren't Calvinists offering a philosophy that, when taken seriously, that is to say, logically, ends up defeating itself?

MikeL #43398 Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian
Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Quote
The funniest thing about a Calvinist evangelist is the fact that he or she will spread the gospel and end the sales pitch as if some kind of decision could or should be made. Again, all decisions are made by God, so to assume the person being evangelized has the ability to respond or make some kind of choice is absurd....according to Calvinism.

Sorry, Mike, you've got it wrong. Calvinists don't deny that men have wills with the ability to make decisions. What Calvinists deny is that men have wills that are equally free to choose good as to choose evil. The Lord has ordained means by which He draws His elect unto Himself, & one such means is the indiscriminate preaching of the gospel. The Holy Spirit changes the heart such that the elect will hear & receive the gospel news, and in the hour in which the Spirit does this work in them, the elect will choose to repent & serve God. Those whose hearts the Spirit does not change will be hardened against the truth; they will choose to remain in bondage to sin. It is the Spirit's act of regeneration which is the turning point from spiritual death to spiritual life. Those who are spiritually dead cannot help but remain dead and will walk in the manner of dead men apart from the Spirit's work.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #43420 Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Hi Kyle,

"Those whose hearts the Spirit does not change will be hardened against the truth; they will choose to remain in bondage to sin."

Can you please read this again, slowly. Read it one more time. Better yet, let someone who is not involved in these little debates read it - i.e. someone with an unprejudiced mind (hey, I'm prejudiced, too. I think Calvinism leads to insanity).

This is where Calvinism leads - the end of thought.

Perhaps Chesterton had it right - religion has had a secondary function throughout time, and that is the defense of a man's right to think for himself.

I'm serious, though. Can you please print this off, and read your sentence to someone. I'm curious to find out what they think.

Best wishes,
Mike

MikeL #43424 Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Mike

Actually what Kyle said makes perfect sense. However perhaps your problem is that you haven’t fully grasped what he has said.
I thought you might benefit from reading the following two articles.
http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html
http://www.the-highway.com/Irresistible_Murray.html

By the way, I was Arminian for over half of the 30 years I was a Christian.
I only started to embrace the doctrines of grace, other wise known as Calvinism, after a lot of prayer and study on the issues.
In more than one way, it cost me a lot to change my Arminian belief system. Those studies caused things like sleepless nights, depression, marital friction, and a few family members openly hostile against Calvinism. Some of these things several members of these boards know about.
Yet I can honestly say that although those things were not in anyway pleasant, it was worth it in the long run.
One of the things I now realize is that although I didn’t know it back then, my Arminian beliefs made me view Scripture and God through the eyes of man. I now look at Scripture and God, through the eyes of our sovereign God.
I am not sure if that makes sense to you, but I have heard many Calvinists say this very thing. I guess it might be something that can only be recognized once it is experienced.
Perhaps, that could be put in a more coherent way. If anyone else reading this wants to do that be my guest.

I will also say that all this didn’t happen over night either. So if it happens to you, only the Lord knows how long it will take.

Tom

Tom #43425 Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Mike at the risk of overwhelming you with too much information (which is not my intention). I thought I would add what I consider to be my favorite article on Calvinism.
http://www.the-highway.com/Death.html
It is a little too long to actually be called an article, but in my opinion it is a masterful work.

Tom

Tom #43430 Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 149
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 149
Mike,
Welcome to The Highway.I think you'll find the folks here to be quite friendly.
I also agree with Kyle's statement conserning the hardening of the non-elect.A person will always make choices according to their nature.
I hope you will read the articles that others here have directed you to.They were helpful to me in coming to understand the doctrines of grace.Like Tom, I spent more than half of my christian life as an Arminian before the Holy Spirit led me here where my spiritual eyes were opened.


[Linked Image]
Tom #43431 Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
AC. Offline
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
I like Paul's words that Augustine (the forefather of Calvinism) always hamered home and what should keep every believer humble and to give God to glory...




"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

Last edited by AC.; Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:53 AM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

AC. #43437 Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
"A person will always make choices according to their nature." This falls into the category of nonsense about not having free will, it's just stated a different way.

It's a great way to justify using force rather than persuasion, because if reason - the ability to think and make decisions - is subservient to this unconscious nature - then trying to persuade a group of people against their will (read: nature) is hopeless and illogical.

Perhaps that's why instead of inviting people to church, Calvin made it a law in Geneva to attend church.

But how was this driving force that makes all our decisions found in the first place? Did someone choose to read it in the Bible? Weren't they driven there by their "nature"? Wasn't their interpretation simply an unfolding of their "nature"? And if so, what makes their interpretation - their nature - any better than mine?

Because I don't see any evidence for this in Scripture. But you would say that's my nature - it's blinding me to the truths - of your nature.

So what makes your nature any better than mine, seriously? If you try to explain it to me, aren't you just saying what your nature chose you to say? And I'll say what my nature says I'm supposed to say. Nothing will get done!


Tom #43438 Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Yes, if I simply mature a bit, then I'll begin to understand that I have no free will.

Sorry, as long as God gives me the ability to reason, I'll keep thinking, praying, and testing the spirits. I feel sorry for you, Tom, because you've obviously been taken captive by a philosophy that is superficially unpopular for a reason - it's wrong.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
1 members (Pilgrim), 86 guests, and 29 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach, Daverogk
964 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
September
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,284,012 Gospel truth