The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Free will

I posed a question one day at a church that I was attending. It was a Calvary Chapel. I asked if there was any such thing as a free will. The answer I got was of course.

I then stated, if there was a free will then we are not bonded by sin, because a free will would mean that there is absolutely nothing influencing our decision. The response that I got from an individual was. It all depends on how you define free will. (This brought me back to the Clinton years). I left wondering how one could manipulate language and words instead of looking at the possibility of an error in their theology. I was later asked by someone If I was trying to think too much instead of being led by the spirit. In other words I should just drink the cool aid.

I have not returned to that church since after two years in attendence. Still not able to find a good Christ centered church to attend.

Dr Don,

Welcome to The Highway! Six years ago, I too was in a similar position as I could not find a faithful church in SW New Hampshire. So, I posted a query on the Church Locator Forum and was directed to the church I am in now. I might suggest you do the same. It is difficult to find faithful churches these days but there are some and perhaps other members of the board could make suggestions.

Have you looked at the Church Locator here in the forum? That might be a good starting place.

-Robin

Well, MrDon... then you should jump right down to the Church Locator Forum and put in a request.

It helps if you give some particulars of the type of church (Calvinistic only of course) you are looking for, e.g.,:
- Credo/Paedo Baptist
- Worship style (hopefully traditional)
- Location
- Any other information you deem helpful

There has been a very good success rate for those who have used that forum to find a church.

Hi MrDon, I don't think that human freedom can be defined as the absence of outside influences, since men were created to be in a relationship with the Trinity.

If we are truly "partakers in the divine nature", then we must partake in God's freedom. Cf. 2 Pt 1:4.

Here is something the Council of Trent said about human freedom:

[CCC#1993] Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

So you asked the Calvary Church members a question as if they had the freedom to answer correctly. Obviously, God predestined them to answer in the way they answered, and some here might find is blasphemous to assert that they had the free will to answer correctly.

The funniest thing about a Calvinist evangelist is the fact that he or she will spread the gospel and end the sales pitch as if some kind of decision could or should be made. Again, all decisions are made by God, so to assume the person being evangelized has the ability to respond or make some kind of choice is absurd....according to Calvinism.

Or is it possible to be scriptural about free will, and illogical about he implications of that belief? In other words, aren't Calvinists offering a philosophy that, when taken seriously, that is to say, logically, ends up defeating itself?

Sorry, Mike, you've got it wrong. Calvinists don't deny that men have wills with the ability to make decisions. What Calvinists deny is that men have wills that are equally free to choose good as to choose evil. The Lord has ordained means by which He draws His elect unto Himself, & one such means is the indiscriminate preaching of the gospel. The Holy Spirit changes the heart such that the elect will hear & receive the gospel news, and in the hour in which the Spirit does this work in them, the elect will choose to repent & serve God. Those whose hearts the Spirit does not change will be hardened against the truth; they will choose to remain in bondage to sin. It is the Spirit's act of regeneration which is the turning point from spiritual death to spiritual life. Those who are spiritually dead cannot help but remain dead and will walk in the manner of dead men apart from the Spirit's work.

Hi Kyle,

"Those whose hearts the Spirit does not change will be hardened against the truth; they will choose to remain in bondage to sin."

Can you please read this again, slowly. Read it one more time. Better yet, let someone who is not involved in these little debates read it - i.e. someone with an unprejudiced mind (hey, I'm prejudiced, too. I think Calvinism leads to insanity).

This is where Calvinism leads - the end of thought.

Perhaps Chesterton had it right - religion has had a secondary function throughout time, and that is the defense of a man's right to think for himself.

I'm serious, though. Can you please print this off, and read your sentence to someone. I'm curious to find out what they think.

Best wishes,
Mike

Mike

Actually what Kyle said makes perfect sense. However perhaps your problem is that you haven’t fully grasped what he has said.
I thought you might benefit from reading the following two articles.
http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html
http://www.the-highway.com/Irresistible_Murray.html

By the way, I was Arminian for over half of the 30 years I was a Christian.
I only started to embrace the doctrines of grace, other wise known as Calvinism, after a lot of prayer and study on the issues.
In more than one way, it cost me a lot to change my Arminian belief system. Those studies caused things like sleepless nights, depression, marital friction, and a few family members openly hostile against Calvinism. Some of these things several members of these boards know about.
Yet I can honestly say that although those things were not in anyway pleasant, it was worth it in the long run.
One of the things I now realize is that although I didn’t know it back then, my Arminian beliefs made me view Scripture and God through the eyes of man. I now look at Scripture and God, through the eyes of our sovereign God.
I am not sure if that makes sense to you, but I have heard many Calvinists say this very thing. I guess it might be something that can only be recognized once it is experienced.
Perhaps, that could be put in a more coherent way. If anyone else reading this wants to do that be my guest.

I will also say that all this didn’t happen over night either. So if it happens to you, only the Lord knows how long it will take.

Tom

Mike at the risk of overwhelming you with too much information (which is not my intention). I thought I would add what I consider to be my favorite article on Calvinism.
http://www.the-highway.com/Death.html
It is a little too long to actually be called an article, but in my opinion it is a masterful work.

Tom

Mike,
Welcome to The Highway.I think you'll find the folks here to be quite friendly.
I also agree with Kyle's statement conserning the hardening of the non-elect.A person will always make choices according to their nature.
I hope you will read the articles that others here have directed you to.They were helpful to me in coming to understand the doctrines of grace.Like Tom, I spent more than half of my christian life as an Arminian before the Holy Spirit led me here where my spiritual eyes were opened.

I like Paul's words that Augustine (the forefather of Calvinism) always hamered home and what should keep every believer humble and to give God to glory...




"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

"A person will always make choices according to their nature." This falls into the category of nonsense about not having free will, it's just stated a different way.

It's a great way to justify using force rather than persuasion, because if reason - the ability to think and make decisions - is subservient to this unconscious nature - then trying to persuade a group of people against their will (read: nature) is hopeless and illogical.

Perhaps that's why instead of inviting people to church, Calvin made it a law in Geneva to attend church.

But how was this driving force that makes all our decisions found in the first place? Did someone choose to read it in the Bible? Weren't they driven there by their "nature"? Wasn't their interpretation simply an unfolding of their "nature"? And if so, what makes their interpretation - their nature - any better than mine?

Because I don't see any evidence for this in Scripture. But you would say that's my nature - it's blinding me to the truths - of your nature.

So what makes your nature any better than mine, seriously? If you try to explain it to me, aren't you just saying what your nature chose you to say? And I'll say what my nature says I'm supposed to say. Nothing will get done!

Yes, if I simply mature a bit, then I'll begin to understand that I have no free will.

Sorry, as long as God gives me the ability to reason, I'll keep thinking, praying, and testing the spirits. I feel sorry for you, Tom, because you've obviously been taken captive by a philosophy that is superficially unpopular for a reason - it's wrong.