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Pilgrim
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Overall, rereading your post I understand where you are coming from and I don't think we are that far apart. I do think the denominations I mentioned (but especially the NRC)are high Calvinists not Hypers.

I think as total-depraved beings our hearts are not broken easily and if the narrow way is truly narrow I think we need to remain watchful and sober yet hopeful and faithful.

I apologize if I came off too judging but I do believe God is the same today as yesterday. The saints of the Bible and early church probably did not take their eye off the ball or engage much in the trivial nor were they much distracted, so from that pov I think some of what may be covered by so-called 'liberty' accounts for much that is trivial or even distracting and does in no way bring us closer to God, I guess I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by AC.; Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:41 PM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

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Originally Posted by AC.
a deck of cards is not the problem, not sure the origin there, but card playing (i.e. poker) I think is a form of godlessness as with most games of chance and lotteries, etc.

It's not simply a list of do's and don't. I do believe the saved will naturally lose their taste for such activities and if they don't know it's god dishonoring we should warn our brethren correctly. Ignorance is not an excuse to sin or particpate in sinful activities or something that resembles sins. I don't believe this type of abstinance is a pre-condition for salvation and I don't believe any of these conservative denominations would say so. But I do believe a fruit of conversion is losing our taste for worldly pursuits overall, even though the old man is still present he will be overcome.
1. The "origin" of the 'problem' with the deck of cards first came to my attention from an elder in the NRC. I seem to recall that he had specific individuals assigned to the face cards; King, Queen, Jack and Joker, all being 'bad', e.g., the Devil, etc. If it wasn't so serious it would have been humorous. Needless to say I was once again impressed with how far men will go to make something good into something evil... aka: Pharisaism at its finest and Sophistry as its defense.

2. And as far as your second statement above, it appears that you have consigned my soul to everlasting hell for according to your 'standard' I was never genuinely converted because I enjoy a game of cribbage, solitaire or free cell. And I seriously doubt that my enjoy of occasionally playing a game of cribbage with my wife will diminish during the short time I have left on this earth. You have judged anyone who makes use of a deck of cards to be sinning. How sad. Further, you contradict yourself by saying, "I don't believe this type of abstinence is a pre-condition for salvation..." Yet, "But I do believe a fruit of conversion is losing our taste for worldly pursuits overall, even though the old man is still present he will be overcome." Thus, although it, abstinence from whatever you deem to be sin, even though Scripture does not teach so, isn't a "pre-condition" of salvation you do believe it is a "post-condition" of salvation. This is classically called, "Synergism", or in the vernacular, "works righteousness". Sorry, but I believe that salvation is all of grace and that man-made rules and regulations are to be avoided at all cost, whether it be adding something to the work of Christ or some form of self-imposed asceticism. That we should live a life of holiness which is the fruit of regeneration and naturally flows from justification is a biblical truth. Salvation is by faith alone but not a faith that is alone. But again to fabricate arbitrary prohibitions against that which God does not call sin is in fact sin itself.

Sorry to disappoint you for not "making the grade" and thus being destined to eternal damnation according to your "standard" of holiness. [Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by AC.
I think as total-depraved beings our hearts are not broken easily and if the narrow way is truly narrow I think we need to remain watchful and sober yet hopeful and faithful.
Classic Reformed Theology doesn't teach that the regenerate are total depraved. That is a flat contradiction on its face. Regeneration removes total depravity since regeneration is that radical transformation of the soul whereby a new godly disposition is created. That a remnant of of the "old nature" remains is hardly to be equated with Total Depravity.

Originally Posted by AC.
I apologize if I came off too judging but I do believe God is the same today as yesterday. The saints of the Bible and early church probably did not take their eye off the ball or engage much in the trivial nor were they much distracted, so from that pov I think some of what may be covered by so-called 'liberty' accounts for much that is trivial or even distracting and does in no way bring us closer to God, I guess I'll leave it at that.
There is a popular characterization of the Puritans in some circles which tend to define a Puritan as: "Someone who sits in the dark down in the cellar/basement and says to himself, 'I have the distinct feeling that there is someone out there having fun!'" Unfortunately, this type of thinking is not historically accurate. There has been some excellent books written over the past 30+ years which have removed this type of inaccurate image of the Puritans, especially those in New England. One such book is The Puritans at Play. Would you believe that they actually played games with their children and with each other? No, they had no need to be "entertained" to excess at all. But they were not the stereo-typical idea of a bunch of stiff-necked, holier-than-thou, black-stocking individuals that some would like to believe.

Sometimes, one can be so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. wink Yes, I was told that even Jesus Himself never laughed nor even smiled for that matter. He had no time to enjoy the good things of this earth which His Father created for man and which reflect His glory. I don't believe that type of nonsense either. igiveup

Romans 14:4-14 (ASV) "Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that eateth, eateth unto the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, unto the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and none dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived [again], that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge ye this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling. I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself: save that to him who accounteth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

You can have the last word if you like. My position is quite clear: I oppose the world (the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) and I must likewise oppose those who try to take the good things of God and make them part of the evil of this world, insisting all such things must be avoided and even make salvation dependent upon practicing abstinence of them.


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Come on Jeff,

you're simplifying my argument (and over-simplifying the NRC's position on these matters to a certain extent)and overlooking my finer points, also I think you are letting your emotions get the best of you.

I'm not judging or condemning you especially for the things you mentioned (although I never heard of cribbage). And I think you are using fantastic exaggerations to maybe wake me up. Only God knows the heart. So if I want to spend some trivial time playing a board game or doing a puzzle with my children I don't believe that says everything about what lies in my heart but if I'm in a fantasy football league I do think that is telling where my priorities lie (not that that is the final word on the matter) When do we reach a point where we trying to serve God AND Mammon instead of walking thru this life as pilgrims.


I thought I made 2 excellent points that you did not acknowledge

one on Calvin (do you lay such a serious claim against him - explain) and the other on the saints of Biblical times and their level of commitment and how God has not changed.

I'm not saying all things indifferent are sinful and condemning, but I am saying if we are indifferent we will be condemned and I wonder how many are truly committed to God - me included, my faith is often not in exercise. How often I try to balance serving 2 masters but I know God does not want me to put anything before Him.


I'm not trying to change your belief on these matters.

Maybe you can touch on those 2 points and have the final word, thanks!

AC



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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by AC.
I think as total-depraved beings our hearts are not broken easily and if the narrow way is truly narrow I think we need to remain watchful and sober yet hopeful and faithful.
Classic Reformed Theology doesn't teach that the regenerate are total depraved. That is a flat contradiction on its face. Regeneration removes total depravity since regeneration is that radical transformation of the soul whereby a new godly disposition is created. That a remnant of of the "old nature" remains is hardly to be equated with Total Depravity.

no,no you misunderstand me, I was making 2 different points, 1st that as unregenerate we are totally depraved and once we are regenerated we will walk a way that is strait and narrow as did Christian in Pilgrims Progress. A serious way filled with many trials and tribulations as well as moments of peace, hope and joy.

Last edited by AC.; Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by AC.
I thought I made 2 excellent points that you did not acknowledge

one on Calvin (do you lay such a serious claim against him - explain) and the other on the saints of Biblical times and their level of commitment and how God has not changed.
I'm not so sure what Calvin tried to do in Geneva. I do know he didn't have nearly the kind of power or influence which those who dislike him allege he had. What is true is that whatever he tried to do to "Christianize" Geneva failed miserably which I believe was a given since this is not what God has instructed us to do in His Word. Is what you have been told about Calvin true? Or, is it more fanciful tales dreamed up by those who would like to define holiness according to their own scruples and then recruit a fictitious "Calvin" to give them some credibility? scratchchin And really, is John Calvin to be the standard to follow, or is Scripture the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice?

Originally Posted by AC.
I'm not saying all things indifferent are sinful and condemning, but I am saying if we are indifferent we will be condemned and I wonder how many are truly committed to God - me included, my faith is often not in exercise. How often I try to balance serving 2 masters but I know God does not want me to put anything before Him.
1. Things that are indifferent are inherently good and therefore cannot be sinful and condemning. It is sinful man with a weak faith that labels that which is good as sinful, aka: the weaker brother. And to this individual it would be sinful to partake of whatever is construed to be sinful.

2. A person who is preoccupied with the sinful aspects of this world is suspect as to their profession. But I cannot judge an individual who partakes of that which is "indifferent", aka: good in itself just because I or my church or denomination thinks that it is sinful. The problem is with ME and not that individual. Again, condemnatory broad brush strokes reveals a legalistic heart, which we can all easily fall into.

Lastly, as to your thinking that a computer is far better than a TV because you have more "control" over it. Sorry, my friend, but as a computer tech I can tell you without any hesitation that you have far less "control" over what you see and "get" off the Internet than you do with a television. I don't know how you came to that opinion, but it is anything but factual.


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No, there is no problem with the things indifferent. I don't think playing a game or puzzle, nor various harmless activities are a problem. You and I would probably be in agreement over many of the things that are dishonorable or harmful, and I'm sure you would express concern out of love to your fellow brethren that was participating in something that may hinder his/her walk with God (as it would relate to Scriptures - again, see Beeke's article).


thanks!

AC


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I know how easily and naturally I can fall into legalism. I suppose it's natural for many, perhaps less so for those who tend to slip into more "obvious" sin that they cannot disguise as something noble and well-intended.

Steve Brown once made a comparison which comes to my mind every time the word "legalism" is mentioned. He says sanctification is a dance, not a duty. And a legalist is a dancer who is always looking at his or her own feet, to make sure (s)he's getting every step exactly right. And missing the whole point of dancing, which is to enjoy the One you're dancing with. Our eyes should be on His face, not on our own feet. ... Or worse yet, on someone else' feet!

I appreciate this discussion, gentlemen, and especially the thoughtful, respectful, and loving way in which it has been conducted even at the points where two disagree very sharply. You have both sought to clarify your own position, and to restate the other's position in an effort to understand it better. This thread has been an example of fruitful and editfying debate, and I thank you both, Pilgrim and AC, for the way you have conducted it.

-R

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