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#42138 - Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:54 AM Word of Faith: Redefining Faith  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
Word-of-Faith teaching offers great rewards in the here-and-now, by making faith into something completely different from Biblical faith.


Hagin, Price, Meyers, and other WOF teachers have changed the definition of faith, so that it bears no resemblance to what Jesus taught. To them, faith is a Force that anyone can employ, just as God did in creation, directing its use with words. God's words, of course, should be used.

To Christ, however, faith is not a "force" that a well-trained Jedi can manipulate using words! Faith is childlike dependence born of humility:

Quote
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:2-4, NASB).

What is it about children that "qualifies" them? Is it skill in the use of words to manipulate their parents into providing for them? No. Is it innocence? No way. Children, according to Scripture, are not innocent. It is faith born of humility. It is dependence. It is childlike trust. It is reliance upon Another to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, because we are small and weak and helpless.

That is why the gospel is good news to sinners and foolishness to "those in no need of a physician (Luke 5:30-32)."

We're talking about completely different definitions of faith here. Jesus' definition is the one which applies to salvation. The "Force of faith," to use Charles Capps' exact words (Capps is another of the big "faith teachers"), is nothing short of witchcraft which uses the name of Jesus like a talisman rather than the Name in which we humbly trust.

#42139 - Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:16 AM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: Robin]  
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CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
It's a lot like the magician Simon, isn't it?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#42141 - Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:16 PM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

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Florida
Oooooo, and I thought I was being harsh! But yes, pretty much!

#42150 - Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:40 PM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: Robin]  
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quigley Offline
Plebeian
quigley  Offline
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Puget Sound region
It's truly amazing and sad how many people are into the word faith movement and hang on every word people like Joyce Meyers utter. I can only imagine what it's like for them when they aren't able to achieve the desired results when 'exercising' their faith.

How does this relate to the Lordship controversy?? Do these people teach obedience, or is it just 'blab it and grab' stuff??


#42153 - Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:17 AM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: quigley]  
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

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Florida
That varies from teacher to teacher. Some make no bones about "manipulating God" or using "the force of faith" to get what you want.

Others have learned that they can "score more points" with evangelicals by telling us we should "be like Jesus" in the way we use faith. He is Lord, to W-O-F teachers, because He is more powerful, having unlimited mastery of the force of faith. And, of course, He has the right of a Creator over His creation, as the potter has over the clay. But, they say, He has graciously given us the ability to employ "the force of faith" as well. That, they say, is how Man is made "in His image."


#42200 - Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:43 PM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: Robin]  
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vickie Offline
Plebeian
vickie  Offline
Plebeian

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florida
I think that in desperation, many well meaning people invoke the name of our Lordinto lifes difficult situation, truly wanting to see results. ? Is Jesus operating in my life. Not understanding the soverienty of the Lord, they will try to create the right climate (atmosphere) through music, (repetative motions) screaming prayers (very popular in Miami) until the good Lord lets them wear themselves out. Then, after all the huf and puff they say it isn't working, it's either I am doing something wrong, or G-d isn't listening. I believe God can and will ( it is His soverign right) to will his way into that any moment or not. Unfortantly, many feel their faith is weak/inferior because miracles arn't following them. I've been in the chrasmitic movement for years and have preaty much seen it all. Those who do the most shouting, jumping and clapping move up the ranks as spiritual icons while those truly seeking relationship, Kingdom understanding are left in the fairy dust the others claim is falling from heaven. wow.

#42201 - Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:29 PM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: vickie]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
Hello, Vickie, and welcome to the Highway!

Like you, I too have seen and finally recognized the shouting and noise as attempts to either "conjure up the Holy Ghost," so to speak, or to conjure up enough "faith" to move Him.

Either way, by very definition, any attempt to manipulate God (whether through noise or by conjuring up "the force of faith" or to "make oneself believe enough") is nothing short of witchcraft. The mere fact that the name of Jesus is used instead of other incantations changes nothing. It is still based entirely on a false premise - the wrong definition of faith. Not to mention the wrong definition of God and of His sovereign rule over all His creation. I am reminded oft Jesus' words describing this kind of prayer in His own time:

Quote

When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that they may be seen by men... (Matthew 6:5)."


Because it is not so much that they are trying to convince themselves of what they are saying, as much as they seek to be perceived by others as having great faith so that others will look up to them.

I always blamed myself for not having sufficient faith, or sufficient willingness to shout and jump and make a fool of myself in front of others... and note that the hype is almost always done in a corporate setting where people can play off one another's emotions (which we called "building up one another's faith"). But my most fervent and most effective prayer always took place in the closet.

Thanks for your observations, and again, welcome!




#46841 - Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:24 PM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: Robin]  
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Mickel Offline
Plebeian
Mickel  Offline
Plebeian

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Posts: 4
Pacific NW
Robin, I like your thoughts concerning faith. I think other people can get off on tangents and ascribe for a long to certain things and be wrong. I don't think it necessarily evil but hopefully it will prod us on to discover our own weaknesses in misunderstood areas. God has been gentle with me when i'm wrong. Others..not so much.

#46847 - Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:59 AM Re: Word of Faith: Redefining Faith [Re: Mickel]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
Originally Posted by Mickel
... I think other people can get off on tangents and ascribe for a long [time] to certain things and be wrong. I don't think it necessarily evil but hopefully it will prod us on to discover our own weaknesses in misunderstood areas. God has been gentle with me when i'm wrong. Others..not so much.


Hi!

I "bolded" the words I want to address. It may not be meant as evil; it may not be intended for evil use by those who believe it, but wrong teaching - especially on an issue as fundamental as the meaning of faith - IS EVIL! It is a lie (and who is the father of all lies?), originally conceived to cause the Lord's children to stumble; to prevent others from entering the kingdom; to keep believers busy chasing greater gifts and greater "anointing" and greater "faith," rather than resting, with childlike trust, in what God has already provided in Christ.

Granted, most of those who have been taught this stuff don't believe it out of malice or selfish intent. But the teaching itself is absolutely evil. Your last sentence is a needed word of caution and I thank you for it: When attacking an evil teaching, we need to be careful not to bruise and belittle those who have been seduced and led astray by it.

-Robin


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