The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum To know or not know Jesus

Isn't that a bit of a silly question? It is obviously not a matter of denying what Peter wrote, but rather a matter of interpretation of what Peter wrote. In my previous reply to you, I explained how I believe this phrase is to be understood, referencing the "Parable of the Sower". Exegetically, the CONTEXT, verses 1-21, shows that Peter isn't speaking of saved individuals whatsoever, but reprobate false prophets and false teachers, 2 Peter 2:1 (ASV) "But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." And Peter goes on to describe the debaucheries and heretical things these people do and teach. Their end, says Peter "whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not." (v.3) and "But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,".

Anticipating that you will want to bring up the matter of 2Pet 2:1, specifically the phrase, "...the Lord who bought them", and thus insisting that this surely means that Christ died for them, which I expectedly and categorically deny, you might consider THIS and THIS.

Newmie & Honcho....

There are definitely verses that appear to allude to losing salvation....but when you consider the verses that declare the total depravity of man, God's sovereignty/predestination/election and the grace of God given to man unto salvation that there is no room for boasting....I believe the award goes to perseverance of the saints over conditional salvation.....

AC,

Let us not forget the ultimate focus of God's love and of those who have been recipients of that love... THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. It was and is HIS vicarious, substitutionary atonement that satisfied all the demands of the law. It was HIS ransom that paid the infinite debt of those who the Father gave Him to die for. It was HIS propitiation which appeased the wrath of God. It was HIS sacrifice that endured the punishment due to the elect of God. And, it was HE who reconciled those who were born enemies and haters of God to God.

Because the Lord Christ, through His perfect righteousness and substitutionary death, provides the perfect holiness demanded and the receiving of the punishment due for not having it, there is NOT ONE for whom He died that will be lost. Additionally, to 'seal the deal', having lived that perfect life and having died that perfect death, He also sends the Holy Spirit to apply all that He merited for His own and to preserve them, indwelling within them, to the end appointed for them.

Hear the very words of God given through the apostle Paul:

Romans 8:29-39 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

YES!

I never understood how people could believe that with all Jesus went through it all comes down to our clouded, fool-hearty choice.....with all that Jesus went through it is obvious that when He died such a willing, painful, humiliating death.....it was for the thirsty & needy pilgrims of this world.......John 17

Silly me, I know. Ok, help me out then. Maybe this is just semantics (maybe we agree but just speak differently) because I don't see how the parable of the sower proves that the people Peter is talking about were never saved. If those people are like the seed that fell on thorny ground...well...that seed actually became a plant with roots. True, it was eventually choked out by the thorns (ie. the pollution of the world) but we don't say that it was never a plant. It surely was.

Likewise, when Peter is talking about people who "escaped the pollution of the world" it seems that we shouldn't speak as if they had never escaped the pollution of the world. They had. Peter said so. And when people escape the pollution of the world, we call them "saved." Right?

You and others here have escaped the pollutions of the world, I would assume, and as a result call yourselves "saved."

Hey Brian,

You raise interesting points, but as a whole how would you or the RCC in general interpret the parable of the sower, what was the central point of this parable with all it's symbolic intent?

AC

Let's look at the CONTEXT of Christ's infallible interpretation of the 'types of ground' and the results of seed (the Word/Gospel) falling on them:

Okay.... so here we have first type of ground we want to consider (the second type of ground, the first being where there was initially no understanding), i.e., the rocky ground. The seed doesn't penetrate the soil and thus there is no germination, no root is formed. Thus there is the appearance of growth, but it not a spiritual plant. We might classify this appearance as a weed, undesirable and incapable of producing any acceptable fruit. This 'weed' eventually dies because of its superficiality; no root. It cannot withstand the pressures (tribulation/persecution) of the world, that comes against those who profess faith. In short, there is no real spiritual life, no commitment to Christ which demands that one pick up his cross and follow Him.

The second (third) type of ground is the thorny ground. Here the individual 'hears the word' (externally with the ears) but there is again no real spiritual life, no commitment to following Christ, but in this case the allurements of this world and its philosophy has precedence. The result is this person abandons what he/she professed thus showing that they were never genuinely regenerated and converted.

The last type of ground is called "good", i.e., it is fertile and it allows that which was heard in the Gospel to take root resulting in a genuine change, aka: repentance and a growth in spirituality... sanctification.

Thus, I am suggesting that those individuals referenced by Peter are examples of those represented by the rocky and thorny individuals in the parable of the Sower. Again, I would recommend you read the entire chapter (2Pet 2) and carefully consider how he describes these individuals which is totally pejorative.

I am NOT denying the description of "having escaped the pollution of the world", but rather interpreting it differently than you do. I am assuming that you are wanting to understand the word "escape" as salvific. And I am saying that it is not salvific but rather a perception. These individuals made a profession and perhaps initially abstained from certain perceptible sins. But it was 1) superficial, e.g., the 'righteousness' of the Pharisees, and 2) quickly abandoned and these people's lives became even worse than what it was before they made a profession to be a follower of Christ.

Yes, this is certainly true. And what is also true is that there are those who are 'religious' outwardly, but inwardly they are yet dead in sin. Counterfeits look very much like the real thing, don't they? Even the Devil himself can transform himself to appear as an "angel of light" (2Cor 11:14). But, I seriously doubt you would say Satan was once saved and then lost that salvation, right? There are many false professors, false gospels, false spirits, false prophets, false teachers, etc., who outwardly have the appearance of being genuine.

Pilgrim

I agree with your interp. of the parable of the sower....I really don't see how you could take it any other way.....

I would be curious to see other perpectives however....that's how we get to the 'root' of these disagreements....

AC

Ok, so would you describe these people as “having escaped the pollutions of the world” or would you describe them as “appearing to have escaped the pollutions of the world?”

I am merely saying that "having escaped" means what it says. They have escaped. You interpret "having escaped" as meaning "appeared to have escaped." They never escaped.

I wonder then why a divinely inspired Peter wouldn’t say that they “appeared” to have escaped the pollutions of the world, rather than say “having” escaped… Why do you suppose that might be? Shouldn't he have worded it differently? I mean, I can see describing the seed sown on good ground as "having escaped."

Of course. We may even deceive ourselves, no? So given all that you have said, I don’t understand how one can say “I am saved” or “we are saved” or “they are saved.” It seems not proper to speak that way.

I'm not sure my interp differs from yours or Pilgrim's. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think anyhing I've seen so far would indicate a substantial difference.

Pilgrim

Thank you for mentioning this, I agree with you. Perhaps I didn't pick the best verse to support what I said.

Tom

Hey Brian I'll let Pilgrim handle the Peter verse because I admit that's a toughy from our POV.....

but for the parable of the sower....

God prepared the soil and planted the seed.... so the good soil represents the elect Christian that gladly receives the Word of God....while the plant in thorny ground was never prepared by God so even though it grew and may have responded to the Word for a time the plant would never remain because there was never any good soil (no regeneration)....so it was a plant but it was never God's plant...make sense?

Ok, I see where you're coming from. So does that mean that a tare may never plow the hard ground and become wheat?

well, that's a whole other parable

Hey Brian, when taking the chapter as a whole it appears to me that 2Peter 2 is talking about false prophets and decievers who may have been taught (and have instructed others in) the way but never had spiritual life. The verse does not seem to be as potent of an endorsement of losing salvation when considering the whole chapter (unless I'm missing something?)

In fact, Peter seems to really be railing against those of whom he speaks in this chapter.....