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Re: Free Will [Re: carlos] #5000
Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:44 AM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:44 AM
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Ecxellent verses, carlos!

Let me quote all of Romans 9:10-33, since the whole thing gives testimony to God's sovereignty:

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25 As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND
OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
John 9 #5001
Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:03 AM
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It would seem like God violated your idea of "free will" here.

(Lest you think Calvinists are not passionate about missions/evangelism, listen to this sermon by Dr. Al Mohler, a Calvinist: http://www.sbts.edu/resources/audio/Fall2003.php)

John 9:1-28

1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
4 "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
7 and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
8 Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?"
9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one."
10 So they were saying to him, "How then were your eyes opened?"
11 He answered, "The man who is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes, and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash'; so I went away and washed, and I received sight."
12 They said to him, "Where is He?" He said, "I do not know."
13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who was formerly blind.
14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, "He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see."
16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath." But others were saying, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?" And there was a division among them.
17 So they said to the blind man again, "What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?" And he said, "He is a prophet."
18 The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,
19 and questioned them, saying, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?"
20 His parents answered them and said, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind;
21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself."
22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.
23 For this reason his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."
24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, "Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner."
25 He then answered, "Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see."
26 So they said to him, "What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?"
27 He answered them, "I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?"
28 They reviled him and said, "You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses."


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Warning [Re: J_Edwards] #5002
Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:56 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:56 PM

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Bravo Joe! That is one of the reasons I like this board so much more than the other boards out there. Out there persons can come on and write any damnable thing they wish to and no one does anything beyond arguing with them. Here at least the moderators live up to the standards that have been set forth and disallow the board from being used as a recruiting post for heretics. Unlike some I could mention.

Re: Free Will [Re: MarieP] #5003
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:01 PM
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God is sovereign and man has a sovereign will too.

Re: Warning [Re: J_Edwards] #5004
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:03 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:03 PM

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Through removal you have blocked your spirit and prevented others from seeing the information that will free their spirit, so be it.

Last edited by InChrist; Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:05 PM.
Re: Free Will #5005
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:25 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:25 PM
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Do you not know what sovereign means? You cannot have TWO sovereigns!


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Free Will [Re: MarieP] #5006
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:30 PM
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Yes you can. Read, "Urgent Project for Everyone Here!!!!" that I just posted and there you will come to your answer.

Re: Free Will -my project for you #5007
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:48 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:48 PM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]God is sovereign and man has a sovereign will too.



Once again no responses to the Scriptures.... All you have stated are assertions that are clearly false.
SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE that indicates that man has "sovereign will".

Scriptures paint a quite different picture. Please READ them and Consider them. Regard this as my "project" for you. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]


Dan 4:34-35: I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"


Prov 19:21
There are many devices in a man's heart; NEVERTHELESS THE COUNSEL OF THE LORD, THAT SHALL STAND.

Acts 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

I tim 6:14...to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display at the proper time--he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.


Isiah 46:9- 11: Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose, calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

Psalm 33:9-11
For he spoke, and it came to be;he commanded, and it stood firm.
The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
The counsel of the LORD stands forever,the plans of his heart to all generations
.



Job 23:13. “The Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it?”

Eph 1:7-11
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known[3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will..

Isiah 10:5-12
Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury!
Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think;but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;8for he says:"Are not my commanders all kings?
9Is not Calno like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad? Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols as I have done to Samaria and her images?"
12When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he[1] will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. 13For he says: "By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I have understanding;
I remove the boundaries of peoples, and plunder their treasures; like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.


Many more scripture verses can be found here:
Gods_Indisputable_Sovereignty.

[color:red]There is only ONE is that SOVEREIGN IN THE UNIVERSE; and that is GOD!!!!!!!!!!!
Thine, 0 Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine; Thine is the kingdom, 0 Lord, and Thou art exalted as Head above all".(I Chron. 29:11)

I end this response with an excellent summary on the sovereingty of God by A. W. Pink.

The sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (I Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible...The sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe, which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i.e., that He may mould that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
...Sovereignty characterizes the whole Being of God. He is sovereign in all His attributes. He is sovereign in the exercise of His power. His power is exercised as He wills, when He wills, where He wills. This fact is evidenced on every page of Scripture
.





in Christ,
Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: Free Will #5008
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:55 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:55 PM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Yes you can. Read, "Urgent Project for Everyone Here!!!!" that I just posted and there you will come to your answer.



It would seem that if you have learned anything from these articles, you call "urgent project", you would be able to defend it's position. At this point, that does not seem to be the case. Hence, why should we read it? hm? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/ponder.gif" alt="ponder" title="ponder[/img] How about giving the scriptures a try? See my post "my project for you".

In christ,
Carlos



"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: Warning #5009
Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:00 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:00 PM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Through removal you have blocked your spirit and prevented others from seeing the information that will free their spirit, so be it.



Trust us, we will live without that stuff. What we need are the scriptures and we have that available. Plus we already many have god-centered, God-glorifying articles on this site and others. Thanks, but no thanks.


in Christ,
Carlos



"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: Warning #5010
Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:17 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:17 PM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Through removal you have blocked your spirit and prevented others from seeing the information that will free their spirit, so be it.

I have also shown that YOUR WILL is NOT AS FREE as you think it is, thus disproving one issue of your FALSE beliefs. Imagine, I as a human can in a split second cause you not to have the privilege of posting here any longer. I have even given you one more opportunity than Adam had, which was probably an error on my part. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]

Now, if I as a human have that kind of power over your will to literally post here, imagine how much more God has in the issues of the heart and "everything." If God predestined ONE event He had to predestine ALL events,.....Did God predestine the death, burial, and resurrection of His Son? YES....point closed! God's will is OVER ours!

Of course, God is holy and His commandments holy, just, and good. Additionally, He violates none of His attributes in not giving you a completely free will. Even God's will is not as free as the will you propose man's is; God cannot sin, cannot be unholy--He cannot chose these things or else He would cease to be God and declare He never was God in the first place.

You need to get rid of NEE and learn to KNEEL, if God in His grace and mercy will allow you to humbly do so with a re-newed heart! You have followed man's method to long (NEE), ask God to reveal His to you His Man (KNEEL and repent and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior).

P.S. as far as your comment above I followed Scripture in not allowing the NEE post: Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;



Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Warning #5011
Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:23 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:23 PM
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Thanks for your comment and support.

Pilgrim runs a tight ship for sure. Heresy needs to be stopped head on. This site receives app 500,000 hits per month (yes, one half-million hits). Imagine the number of people that can read all that is written here! We rather the masses read the Truth and nothing but the truth.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Free Will #5012
Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:52 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:52 PM

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Maybe I am just a doofus, [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/nuts.gif" alt="nuts" title="nuts[/img] but I was thinking about this post today and the idea that we were created in God's image and therefore have a free will. Someone tell me if this logic is stupid, and if so I'll throw it out. But if I am created in the image of God, and God did not choose who would be saved, than wouldn't it stand that I also don't choose things? And therefore neither God or man chooses anything? If that is the case, than what hope is there other than you either go to Hell because Satan himself takes you there or some of his demons do? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/dizzy.gif" alt="dizzy" title="dizzy[/img]
[color:blue]"I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2 (ESV)




Re: Free Will #5013
Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:21 PM
Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:21 PM
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Kalled2Preach,

No, you are not a doofus! Rather, you are sounding like a presuppositionalist ... and some of us, at least, think that is a pretty good way to sound!

Good post![img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/cheers.gif" alt="cheers" title="cheers[/img]


In Christ,
Paul S
Re: Free Will [Re: Paul_S] #5014
Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:56 AM
Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:56 AM

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On the Hannergraff thread I said I believed arminianism is NOT christianity.<br><br>Outofchrist has just supported and cemented these beliefs - so , for that , I must thank him.<br><br>Thank you outofchrist (troy, waronthesaints ) . <br><br>Here is some FREE advice for you - TURN OR BURN.<br><br>howard

Last edited by howard; Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:18 AM.
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