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#53155 Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:50 AM
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Those who would seem to allow for more contemporary worship styles, and also open to some form of spiritual gifts for today, such as a DA Carson/Wayne Grudem?

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Thanks!Would they still be seen as being calvcinists, just ones with some strange notions?

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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Thanks!Would they still be seen as being calvcinists, just ones with some strange notions?
I don't consider them to be Calvinists. A half-truth is no truth. And many of the main proponents of that movement are fraught with serious heresies.


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Would you include Dr Grudem/Carson as being calvinists then? Or a John macarthur?

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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Would you include Dr Grudem/Carson as being calvinists then? Or a John macarthur?
Those 3 might be an exception because they are quite solid on doctrinal matters. Carson, however, would be the 'weakest' of the three.


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Know DA Carson and Dr Grudem both hold to some form of spiritual giftd still for today, and Grudem sees the gift of prophecy still in operation. His ST was a textbook, but felt that he was very good except on area of the Holy spirit, more charasmatic tone. Macarthur very solid, except that some have issues with his strong lordship salvation and his Dispy views!

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I am not sure where I have read it but someone once made a remark that if the New Calvinists are Calvinists then why call themselves New Calvinists and not just Calvinists. Thus, New Calvinism is not the same as Calvinism. ...... scratch1

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Think that they are more open to music styles, spiritual gifts, more in the mold of "tolerant" Calvinists,, do know that Dr Mohler of the SBC is one, and he is trying to get them back to Calvinistic roots!

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Calvinism is NOT "The Five Points of Calvinism" by definition. Calvinism is a biblical cosmology (worldview) that is a theology of all things that pertain to this life and the next which a sovereign triune God has ordained and providentially brings everything to its intended end. Sanctification is one aspect of Calvinism which is the spiritual growth of a believer in godliness who more and more puts off the world and puts on holiness. The New Calvinist movement, by and large, has little use for biblical sanctification.


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Pilgrim, is there a difference between Reformed and Calvinism or they the same thing? As many consider themselves to be Calvinists, so many consider themselves to be Reformed.

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Originally Posted by Johan
Pilgrim, is there a difference between Reformed and Calvinism or they the same thing? As many consider themselves to be Calvinists, so many consider themselves to be Reformed.
I've answered this question before, even recently, but it's definitely worth addressing it again. It all comes down to definitions. In the strict historical meaning of "Reformed" a church/individual would not only embrace the biblical doctrines associated with Calvinism (Five Points), but also the sovereignty of God, rejection of worldliness, holiness of life, the Five Solas, etc., but would in addition include church polity and paedobaptism. The church polity aspect is sometimes allowed to be expressed differently although very similarly, e.g., the difference between the Dutch Reformed churches and Presbyterianism. In the looser use of the term "Reformed", which was common a number of years ago, it was understood and applied more generally to include all who embraced simply the "Five Points". On the other hand, there are those who define "Reformed" to be restricted to only the Dutch Reformed churches. Calvinism is sometimes understood and applied in a similar way as Reformed but typically it includes only the Five Points, and praxis (doctrine of sanctification; 3rd use of the law). So, again, it all comes down to one's definition of the terms. Personally, I like to use "Reformed" in the historical comprehensive sense as briefly spelled out above. And I use Calvinism/Calvinist to include all but church polity and paedobaptism.

Now, there is/was an article which I am quite sure I provided a link for some years ago here that referred to a very good article on this subject. It was written, if I'm not mistaken, by a professor of church history who taught at Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, MI. I've searched for the link before but I couldn't find it. hairout But, I'll try another search and perhaps it will turn up. IF it does, I'll add it to this reply. grin

Would you believe I found it? claphands

You can find the article here by Richard Muller: How Many Points?

Last edited by Pilgrim; Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:53 AM. Reason: Added article link

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They would be more accepting the Calvinistic theology regarding salvation, but not accepting the entire Covenant Theology system than?

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There are many Baptists who would be either Reformed proper, as in accepting Covenant theology fully, and the Confession of 1689, but also many Baptists that would see themselves as more calvinist, as accepting 5 doctrines of grace, but not a formal Confession of faith...


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