Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of "$25" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
NH, USA
Posts: 14,021
Joined: April 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,267
Posts53,172
Members964
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,021
Tom 4,035
chestnutmare 3,078
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,818
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 29
Tom 24
Ruben 9
Robin 7
John_C 4
Recent Posts
Rage Against the Unvaccinated!
by chestnutmare - Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:50 AM
Strength via Weakness
by NetChaplain - Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 AM
Good News for a Change
by Pilgrim - Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:53 PM
Doxology
by chestnutmare - Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:41 AM
John 3:16 – Kosmos refers to "Believers Only"?
by Pilgrim - Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:25 AM
All-inclusive Object
by NetChaplain - Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:58 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#56868 Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
With the way things are going in society, it could
very well become like it was during WW11, where for example in Holland
some Dutch people such as the Ten-Boons hid Jews in
their attic.

Recently I was having a conversation with a good friend and others about this
and he said that he would not hesitate to hide some and lie
If it meant it would save their someone’s life.
When I said that I understand that sentiment, but a lie is a lie and their is no case
in Scripture that says it is ok to lie period.

They were shocked at me when I said this, and said Rahab is a good
example of when it is ok to lie when she protected the Jewish spies.
They went onto say that you can not separate Rahab’s lie from her faith.

I said let me just say that I pray I am not sure what I would do
In a situation like that. I pray I never need to find out.

Their response is that it if I did not lie, I would be complicit in their murders.
Even if lying to protect someone’s life is a sin, like any sin, in 1 John 1:9, when
we confess to God our sins, God will forgive us.
In their attempt to prove me wrong they found an article by John MacArthur, and
were equally as shocked at him.
According to them, MacArthur says that there are no valid excuses
for lying, even if it is to save someone’s life.
MacArthur went onto say that those who disagree are just a product of society.

My Reformed friend said, that in a case like that, he could live with himself if
lie saved someone’s life. Whereas if he told the truth and it cost someone’s life,
He could never live with himself.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by Tom; Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:18 PM.
Tom #56869 Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
We've been through this several times before, eh? wink

1. A lie is a lie is a lie is a sin...... period!!! Scripture doesn't teach "Situation Ethics"!! nono

2. Who says you would have to answer any question you are asked? Rarely if ever do these type of individuals consider that there is another alternative, e.g., keeping silent, or distracting the enemy.

3. Peter lied about knowing Jesus, but was cut to the quick for doing so. And when Peter was confronted by Jesus some time after, his guilt became more than evident and his response to Jesus' three questions revealed his true repentance (Jh 21:15ff). Thus, if one chose to lie for any reason, the Spirit (assuming one actual has the Spirit indwelling them) will convict that person and bring that person to confess their sin to God. Should someone suggest that they would have no problem lying because God is obligated to forgive them, then this is a more serious sin than whatever lied might be told. It surely should bring that person to examine themselves as to their spiritual state.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Pilgrim #56870 Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Pilgrim

Thank you, I agree with you.
That of course would not necessarily mean I would not lie, because I certainly understand wanting to protect a person from potential death. Just if I did lie, I know that I can't justify it by Scripture and therefore it is sin regardless.
I pray i never am put in that situation.

Would I be correct to say, that in the case of Rahab hiding the Jewish spies, her lying was just something she did, not something to justify the sin of lying? I was told that one can not separate her lies from the rest of the story and therefore lying was part of her faith.
When I think about that, if they are correct, would it not be going against the Scriptures and therefore making Scripture contradict Scripture. Somewhere I would not even want to consider.

Tom

Tom #56871 Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
1. Lying Defined:

In its very essence, a lie is something said with intent to deceive. It is not always a spoken word that is a lie, for a life lived under false pretenses, a hypocritical life, may be a lie equally with a false word (Jer 24:6). A vain thing, like an idol, may be a lie (Isa 59:4), as also a false system (Ro 3:7). Error, as opposed to truth, is a lie (1 Joh 2:21). The denial of the deity of Jesus Christ is regarded as "the" lie (1 Joh 2:22).

The origin of lies and lying is traced to Satan who is called "a liar, and the father thereof" (Joh 8:44; Ac 5:3). Satan's dealing with Eve (Ge 3:1-5:6) furnishes us with a splendid illustration of the first lie, so far as we have any record of it.

2. A Racial Sin:

The whole race is guilty of this sin: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps 60:7). It is a part of the old Adamic nature, "the old man" (Col 3:9), which the believer in Jesus Christ is called upon to put off. So prominent a factor is it in the experience of the race that among the condensed catalogue of sins, for the commission of which men are finally condemned, the sin of lying finds its place: "All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Re 21:8 the King James Version).

3. God's Attitude to It:

God's attitude toward this sin is strongly marked throughout both the Old Testament and New Testament. The righteous are called upon to hate lying (Pr 13:5), to avoid it (Ze 3:13), to respect not those who lie, and utterly reject their company (Ps 40:4; 101:7), to pray to be delivered from it (Ps 119:29). The wicked are said to love lying (Ps 52:3), to delight in it (Ps 62:4), to seek after it (Ps 7:4), and to give heed to it (Pr 17:4). Lying leads to worse crimes (Ho 4:1-2).

4. The Penalty:

The punishment to be meted out to liars is of the severest kind. They are positively and absolutely excluded from heaven (Re 21:27; 22:15), and those who are guilty of this sin are cast into the lake of fire (Re 21:8). We are reminded of the awful fate meted out to Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to God and man (Ac 5:1-11). God will "destroy them that speak lies" (Ps 7:16), and "he that uttereth lies shall not escape" (Pr 19:5), yea "a sword is upon the liars" (Jer 50:36 the King James Version). The liar is thereby debarred from rendering any true and acceptable worship unto the Lord (Ps 24:4).
-ISBE by William Evans


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Tom #56872 Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 1
Pilgrim
Of course I agree with you.
What I am dealing with is Reformed Christians who
tell me that in the case where if we do not lie, it will probably result in the murder of someone.

They told me that no matter how one slices it, if I did not lie
I would be complicit in the murder of someone.

I understand that sentiment, but never the less lying is sin regardless.

Tom #56873 Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,021
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Tom
What I am dealing with is Reformed Christians who
tell me that in the case where if we do not lie, it will probably result in the murder of someone.

They told me that no matter how one slices it, if I did not lie
I would be complicit in the murder of someone.
And that view is the paradigm of "Situation Ethics" in which XXXX (insert your circumstance here) overrides the authority of Scripture. In fact, Joseph Fletcher who popularized "Situation Ethics" used a similar paradigm to discredit Christians who followed the law of God as their rule of life. Everyone is prone to sin but it is sin nevertheless and there are consequences to sinning, either temporally or eternally or both. Interestingly, the same is true to those who desire and strive to do what is right. "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2Tim 3:12) And, ironically, some of the most harsh persecutions come from those who profess to be believers against those who strive to live a godly life. rolleyes2


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
1 members (chestnutmare), 86 guests, and 29 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach, Daverogk
964 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
September
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,282,163 Gospel truth
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.30 Page Time: 0.021s Queries: 27 (0.004s) Memory: 2.5532 MB (Peak: 3.0825 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-09-18 17:07:26 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS