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#56901 Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:19 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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There is a quote by a heretic by the name of Dr. Peter Enns, that shows (among other things) that he has a low view of God's Word.

Quote
The Apostle Peter sincerely believed that Adam was a real person; but the Apostle Peter was sincerely wrong.

As I was thinking of this quote, it donned on me that I am not sure exactly where in the writing of Peter where he stated that he believed Adam was a real person. Obviously the Apostle Peter believed that Adam was a real person, however where does he say this?

Tom


Tom #56902 Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:25 PM
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As with most anything that Peter Enns says/writes, it may be difficult to comprehend what he means and/or what his source is. Since he has categorically and unabashedly denied the historic doctrine of Scripture; inerrant, infallible and inspired, one should have no confidence that he conveys truth. flee


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Pilgrim #56903 Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:56 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

As you probably guessed, I do not put much stock in what Peter Enns writes or says. In fact, I was surprised it took so long for his former cemetery (oops I mean seminary) lol, to fire him.

That said, the quote has some truth in it, with the fact the Apostle Peter believed that Adam was a real man. However, I wondered why he would make such a comment.

Tom

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His statement alone should tell you loud and clear that it is false on its face! Why? because what he is suggesting is that there is a dissimulation between Paul's doctrine and Peter's doctrine, which of course is absolute nonsense. And he would disagree because he rejects any notion of inerrancy and infallibility. igiveup


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Pilgrim #56905 Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:55 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

Not sure how you got that from his quote; he did not even bring up Paul.
What it told me is he does not have a very high view of Scripture. Yes that means he rejects any notion of inerrancy and infallibility.


Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:03 PM.
Tom #56906 Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Not sure how you got that from his quote; he did not even bring up Paul.
Originally Posted by Enns by Tom
The Apostle Peter sincerely believed that Adam was a real person; but the Apostle Peter was sincerely wrong.
That's how I got that. giggle


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Pilgrim #56907 Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:24 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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I have read that quote many times and even when I think of it with what you said in mind, I do not understand.

Tom

Tom #56908 Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:43 PM
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Simple..... Enns thinks that Peter believed in the historical Adam, but he writes Peter off because he (Peter) was wrong, i.e., Adam was not a historical real created man. But Paul certainly believed that Adam was a 'real man' and bases the foundation of justification upon this fact (cf. Rom 5:12-17; 1Cor 15:21,22), i.e., "Federal Headship/Corporate Solidarity". If Adam was not real, then Christ's imputed righteousness is not real... forensic justification doesn't exist ala no real salvation from sin. So, again, if Peter, according to Enns is in error in believing that Adam was "a real person" and Paul believes Adam was "a real person", but was correct, then you have a dichotomy between Paul (truth) and Peter (error). Get it now? grin


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Tom #56909 Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:26 AM
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Pilgrim

Doctrinally speaking, I agree with everything you said. However, I do not believe I would ever had got that just from the Peter Enns quote.
After I read what you said, I was scratching my head so much, I thought I must be missing something obvious.
So I invited a good friend of mine to read what you said. He told me he has no idea what your point is.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:30 AM.
Tom #56910 Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:28 AM
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One last attempt. giggle For someone to state that the Apostle Peter really believed in the historicity of an actual person; the Adam found in Genesis in this particular case, and then state that Peter was wrong, in error, meaning that Adam was not a real individual man created by God, then the doctrine of inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy as held by the Church is also wrong. In that same inspired, infallible and inerrant Bible, the Apostle Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit obviously believed that the Adam of the Bible was a real human individual man. And by his transgression of the law of God brought ruin upon not only himself, but all humanity which was to follow and even the creation itself. God's judgment and curse upon Adam which was three-fold; physical, spiritual and eternal death, fell upon every individual individual who was to be conceived upon the earth until the eschaton. It is upon this truth, that of Federal Headship/Corporate Solidarity, that Paul bases the salvation of all who are one in Christ. But Enns doesn't take the Apostle Paul to task and his belief that Adam was a real person. That leaves anyone reading the Bible ... through the lens of Enns' heretical view of Scripture, with a contradiction between what Enns says about the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul. Either Adam was a true human man created by God Himself or Adam is not a true human man. Additionally, if Peter was actually in error about the origin of Adam and all that he did throughout his life including the truthfulness of what he wrote and was preserved in the Bible, then one cannot have any confidence that anything he wrote including his statement about Paul's writings, 2 Peter 3:15-16 (ASV) "15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; 16 as also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Peter believed that the Scriptures which he had at the time plus the writings of Paul and others were "God-breathed" (2Pet 1:19-21) and thus inerrant and infallible. Again if Peter was in error about one thing; the person of Adam, then believing anything in the Bible is true is an exercise in futility at best.

You and your friend can mull through the above and hopefully grasp the depth of Enns' error and its consequences.


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Pilgrim #56911 Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:41 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

You are misunderstanding me. I am agreeing with you in the sense that Dr. Peter Enns has indeed gone against the historic doctrine of inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy. That includes the portions of Scripture that Paul wrote and all the other authors of Scripture wrote. Yet, I am not sure why you singled Paul out.
Paul's writings are indeed a great proof of how wrong Dr. Peter Enns is.

Tom

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Hmmmmm, let's take this down to kindergarten level. IF Peter is in error about the historicity of Adam then Paul is also in error. And if Paul is in error then the entire basis of the Christian religion is erroneous and the Bible is basically useless, albeit perhaps to someone looking for something that would bring their presupposed definition of joy to life.


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Pilgrim #56913 Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:01 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim
I just told you I agreed with that. Maybe I better just drop it.

Tom #56914 Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:07 PM
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You said that you agreed but then you went further, even saying that your friend didn't understand and so a more complete explanation was made. Peter Enns should never had been allowed to study at WTS but money is money. His views deny the veracity of Scripture is so many ways. He believes himself before Scripture. Dreadful to think that he was allowed to first study and then teach and now to promote his views using his resume to include WTS. Tom, You opened the door with a question, Pilgrim thoroughly explicated some of the problems with Enn's teaching. It is good that this discussion happened and perhaps you will come to see that as well.

When you throw a stone into water, there is a ripple effect. What Enn's touches upon such as what you quoted, reveals a much deeper truth. He has a low view of Scripture therefore cannot be trusted. Mark him as a heretic.


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
chestnutmare #56915 Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:41 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Oh My!!!
I said I agreed with what he said. He is a heretic and the fact that his former seminary did not fire him earlier, says a lot about them.

Tom

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