Donations for the month of May


We have received a total of "$25" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 4,210
Joined: April 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,502
Posts53,911
Members969
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,207
Tom 4,210
chestnutmare 3,198
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,835
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 18
Pilgrim 13
jta 12
John_C 4
Recent Posts
The thief! ~ Alexander Smellie
by Rick Bates - Wed May 25, 2022 7:39 PM
Children and Vaccines
by Tom - Sun May 22, 2022 11:50 PM
The Love of God ~ John MacArthur
by Rick Bates - Sun May 22, 2022 5:36 PM
I am mute; I do not open my mouth,
by chestnutmare - Sun May 22, 2022 3:36 PM
“You can’t Legislate Morality”
by Tom - Sat May 21, 2022 2:28 PM
Love is not a rule, but a motive.
by chestnutmare - Fri May 20, 2022 1:04 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#57140 Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
I recently came across an interesting conversation involving John Calvin, specifically related to RC Sproul who someone accused of disagreeing with the doctrine of 'Total Depravity' and therefore not worthy to be considered "Reformed".

According to this particular person, he believes that Scripture says that man lost the image of God at the fall, and that the Reformed doctrine of 'Totally Depravity' is related to this.
He also claimed that the that Reformers such as Calvin and other Reformers believed what he said as well.

Understand here, I have never heard anyone of Reformed persuasion or Calvinist persuasion say anything like that. In fact recently, I listened to several Reformed theologians speak against the Woke and one of arguments they used is that there is only one race and that is the human race. All were created in the image of God; racism is a sin against God, who created man in the image of God.

The person gave several John Calvin quotes to prove his point. Including the following.

“Hence followed the obliteration of the image of God in man, who became unbelieving, unrighteous, liable to death.”
(John Calvin, Aphorisms book 2 # 17)

I suspect, I am not understanding Calvin here.

My understanding and indeed RC Sproul and many others of Reformed persuasion believes despite the fall, mankind retained the "image of God". Though the image of God was marred because of the fall.

Thoughts

Tom

Tom #57141 Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,207
Likes: 42
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,207
Likes: 42
Yeh, yeh... I've heard this silliness before. The 'image of God' consists of the ability to think rationally, logically, to appreciate beauty, to create things from that which was created, and also to love God, love and desire to do all that is good, etc. This set man apart from all other creatures. At the Fall those marvelous attributes which involved the spiritual graces were lost, but the rest remained albeit seriously damaged. The inclination of man was radically changed from loving God and the law to one of hating God and the law. Genesis 9:6 is all that is needed to refute the fallacious notion that the 'imago dei' in man was totally destroyed, which I am going to assume the detractor meant when the word 'obliterated' was used. Genesis 9:6 (ASV) 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man.

IF man is nothing more than a brute beast then the reason demanded the death penalty for taking the unwarranted life of man would be moot or even false for capital punishment rests upon the fact that man still possesses God's image in himself to some degree. After the Fall, all mankind knew that murder was a grievous sin and worthy of death to the guilty one. We see this in the life of Cain after he murdered his brother Abel. [i[]Genesis 4:14 (ASV) 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the ground; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whosoever findeth me will slay me.[/i]. Even before he murdered Abel, God spoke to Cain and chastised him for bring an unauthorized offering. There was guilt in Cain for doing so which God pointed out to him, Genesis 4:4-7 (ASV) 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.. God never required an offering from an animal; only a human being. Animals are not required to be obedient to God, nor to worship Him. Fallen man is totally depraved but not utterly depraved and thus he is responsible to do all the law perfectly and held accountable for failing to do so.

My advice, which is typical to such individual of which you seem to have a propensity to run into..... [Linked Image].


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Pilgrim #57143 Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
What you said is also my understanding of the matter.
What I am interested in finding out more about is the John Calvin quote.

I am not sure I understand what he said.

Tom

Tom #57144 Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,207
Likes: 42
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,207
Likes: 42
A quote out of context is nothing more than pretext. I do not have a copy of Aphorisms to be able to see the context. But there are many more places one can look at Calvin's view of total depravity and the 'imago dei' to discover what Calvin actually believed on this matter. So many spurious attacks on the basic doctrines of the faith have been launched over the centuries where the stalwarts of the faith have been deceitfully quoted in an attempt to give credence to heretical views. But, they all have been shown to be what these attempts were... totally fallacious and thus rejected. I am confident that this is just another such attempt. And, even IF Calvin did believe that the image of God in man was totally lost, thus non-existent, I would have to say that Calvin's view was wrong as would thousands of others who stand on Scripture ALONE as the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Tom #57145 Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Agree!

That is one of the reasons why I can’t stand these short little quotes of people.

Just read that someone else chimed in the conversation and showed Calvin’s position on the image of God in man.
Quote
The quote used in the meme pertains to the autonomous will of mankind being turned against God and completely incapable of pleasing Him apart from being saved. Book 1 of the Institutes gets into it.

Tom #57152 Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 122
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 122
Likes: 1
Tom,
You may have run into someone I encountered a while back. This person is adamant that mankind "lost" the image of God at the Fall, thus resulting in Total Depravity (which includes Utter Depravity according to him). Since "total" and "utter" are synonyms man is now AS BAD AS HE CAN POSSIBLY BE. He defines the image of God as "knowledge, righteousness and holiness" using Eph. 4:24 and Col. 3:10 as scripture proofs and claims that only he and a few of the dead guys (Calvin being one) get this right. I had to take Pilgrim's advice and run. Hope you will do the same.


A Tulip Not a Daisy
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,210
Likes: 4
Thanks, this person never intimidated me at all.
While I decided it was not worth further discussion with him. I am not convinced that Calvin believes we are "utterly depraved". It should be fairly obvious that mankind never lost the ability to do good things, such as help each other out in times of need etc...
In fact, if we measure it that way, then I know non-Christians that put most Christians to shame in that department. Yet, if they were utterly depraved they would sooner laugh in their face than help people out in times of need.

As Pilgrim indicated however, even if Calvin did believe those things, he would be wrong. He is not perfect, Scripture is.

One thing I did notice is that after a while nobody conversed with him.

Tom


Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
1 members (chestnutmare), 30 guests, and 7 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Cliniql, John E, ManassehAmerican, jta, DiscipleEddie
969 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
May
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,342,265 Gospel truth