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#58359 Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:33 PM
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I am having a conversation with someone who is very against Amillennialism. Even to the point, of saying it is a Gospel issue. He does not even believe it is a legit eschatology position. He came out of Lutheranism and seems to reject anything that Lutherans believe now.

I recommended a book by William Henrikson called ‘More Than Conquerers’ to him and he does not seem to be interested in reading it.


As I am trying to think through the issue, before I respond; if I think it is even worth it

By the way, I believe he said he was Reformed and a former Lutheran.

I would be interested in getting feedback on the following that he said to me.

Quote
“I will be honest, after having grown up in the Lutheran culture with no information given about eschatology whatsoever and after having studied much on Lutheranism and amillennialism since and after having studied eschatology (which is part of the gospel BTW) in depth for over 25 years and after having learned the details of what Christ has said and his prophets and apostles have said, I am convinced that amillennialism isn’t even an eschatological position. It’s just simple apathy IMO. They symbolize most things and those symbols don’t come from the Bible; they come from their own imaginations without even finding out, by searching the Bible, what those symbols literally mean. You see, even symbols have literal meetings that we have two find in the Bible. They don’t normally do that, which likely points to apathy again. It doesn’t matter what one person thinks if that same persons opinion can’t be proven by scripture alone. Symbolizing something is meaningless if there’s no literal understanding from the Bible about what that symbol literally means. If they say, “oh, this is a spiritual or symbolic thing that means blah blah blah.“ OK, prove it biblically. Find me the passage in scripture that proves your assertion and keep it within its proper context. When there are details, don’t skip over them. When Jesus told his disciples something, they didn’t ignore him and say, “Oh, you don’t LITERALLY mean what you say and it’s just symbolical or spiritual, right? The one thing that we have to study above all else is right in front of us: God‘s word. It’s not surprising to me that amillennialists generally have a poor understanding of the gospel. There are exceptions, of course, but that has been my experience and many other peoples experience. Each person needs to be able to give a decent gospel presentation and not refer to others peoples’ teachings only. Yet, we live in a culture whose people say, “oh, God doesn’t care about the details.“ That’s a total lie. Again, I was in the same boat growing up as a Lutheran and Amillennialist. I was robbed of the details when I sat under my pastors who provided STORIES. No expository preaching, no Eschatology, no old testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled in his first coming, none of these extremely important passages of scripture. There’s a pattern behind that. It ultimately comes down to not having an understanding of hermeneutics. If you are leaning towards amillennialism, then you should be digging deep into God‘s word to prove it. Instead of reading one persons book, read what matters: The details of the texts. I’m saying that in love. If Jesus says to do something, then we should do it. We must keep that in context, of course. But here’s an example: when Jesus told his disciples about the resurrection and rapture in Matthew 24:29–31, it came after a lot of details about other events. If you symbolize everything in that chapter upto verses 29–31, then, to be consistent, you would have to symbolize the Resurrection and Rapture, too. It goes without saying that that would be heresy, which I believe you would agree with. We cannot deny the truth of Christ’s return. Again, to be consistent and how we read God‘s word.

Also

Quote
Blessings Tom Hardy Just spoke to a good friend of mine who had an in-depth conversation with a mutual friend of ours who knows the book very well and he confirmed what I said: he (William Hendriksen in his book ‘More Than Conquerers’) symbolizes everything and and makes up stuff that isn’t found anywhere in God‘s word. Again, if we define our own symbols instead of letting the Bible explicitly tell us what they mean, then we are promoting false teaching now, when it comes to Postmill, you need to make a distinction between old Post Mill and new Post Mill. Old post mill, which included Jonathan Edwards, were legitimate positions which I disagreed with but were at least arrived by attempting to use God‘s word to make an argument based on what is written. New Postmill doesn’t do that whatsoever and includes Doug Wilson, who is ecumenical and makes up his own ideas.

There is a something else he said that he seems to believe makes this a Gospel issue.
He refers to Matthew chapter 24, to show that Amillennialists get the Gospel wrong. However, I am not sure at the point why he said that.

Tom

Tom #58360 Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:46 PM
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"Don't confuse me with the facts!! I have my mind all made up." igiveup You do have a knack of getting into dialogues with the strangest people, Tom. rolleyes2 His universal castigations unfortunately remove any credibility from his own view, whatever that is. Amillennialists don't "spiritualize everything". Further, they hardly fabricate spiritualizing of certain texts. The Grammatico-Historico Hermeneutic certainly demands understanding certain words/passages as being understood spiritually and not simply and/or literally. Most of the better known Amillenialists came out of Post Millennialism because they DID read the Bible and were more than familiar with its teachings. He has the right to disagree with that eschatological view, but he has no warrant to condemn them on falsehoods. nono

Need I counsel you once again about how to deal with such people? drop

Turn away... pick up your feet... and move them quickly away from such people. Your efforts will be nothing more than futility and a waste of your time which could much better be used for dealing with people who are teachable in spirit. IF he truly believes that anyone (with few exceptions) who holds to Amillennialism also holds to a false gospel, then he has some serious issues which convincing him that Amillennialism is correct won't resolve issues. nope


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Tom #58361 Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:00 AM
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Thanks, I agree with you.
I do not believe he is a Dispi, but what he said does remind me of one that
said similar things to me.
However, they did not say this was a Gospel issue.

He said something else to me that makes me doubt what he says completely.
He told me he learned a lot of his eschatology from RC Sproul and Sproul agrees with him.

I have been listening/reading to RC Sproul for many years and I doubt very much he received this from him.

Tom

Pilgrim #58362 Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:39 PM
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I have decided to take your advice and "turn away...".

Just for the fun (hmm.., maybe the wrong word? Lol), I thought I would provide his latest comment to me.
Quote
I learned a lot about the Gospel from Sproul. regarding the people you mentioned: if people completely disregard the details of what Christ has said and attempt to symbolize things and don’t even seek to find the literal interpretation from God‘s word of those symbols, then I can’t recommend them. Not saying they’re not believers, but wouldn’t recommend them. Think about what I’m saying here: imagine the disciples telling Jesus after he had given them lots of information, “Lord, we heard what you said, but we chose not take you literally.“ You yourself said that you have not studied much on eschatology, so what background would you have to say that Amillennialism is legitimate? until you have studied the information, I recommend holding off on amillennialism. Allow me to recommend the following passages:
1) Jesus’ Olivet discourse: Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21
2) Revelation 6
3) 2nd Thessalonians 2 (Especially the first five verses)
4)Daniel 7-12
5) Zachariah 14
6) Revelation 7–13
Here’s the challenge: read them closely and repeatedly and take them at their face value, paying very close attention to theological context. Read them against each other. If you begin to understand them for what they say and begin to see the connections between them, then you’re not an Amillennialist.


By the way, when I first entered the conversation, I gave him the reason why I entered. Mainly for debate purposes; rather to give him some resources, before he was convinced that Amillennialism is not even a position and goes against the Gospel.

I thank you for the comments.

As far as I can tell, his hate for his former Lutheranism, has clouded some of his understanding of eschatology.

Tom #58363 Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:18 AM
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One of the best defenses of Amillennialism that I have read is the series by David Engelsma which you can read here: A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialsim.

And of course there is Hendriksen's book, More Than Conquerers, which you already mentioned.

There are others too that are more than adequate in the defense of Amillennialism, one of which from a contemporary author, Cornelis P. Venema's The Promise of the Future.

It would be interesting, I guess, to find out how this person describes his eschatological view, e.g., Preterist, Partial Preterist, Historic Postmillennialsim, Historic Premillennialism, Dispensationalist, etc. scratchchin


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Pilgrim #58365 Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:28 PM
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Pilgrim

Good question; but as you mentioned earlier I probably should not go there with him.

I went from naively believing I could give him a suggestion to read Hendriksen's book, before he believed it was a Gospel issue and not even a real position. I was even very clear that he was free to disagree with Amillennialism. Also that I was giving the recommendations for information purposes only and not debate.
He completely ignored that and even said silly things, such as he got lot of his understanding from RC Sproul and seemed to indicate that RC Sproul would agree with him that this is a Gospel issue.

Any idea on why he would say that?

In the past, I have conversed with him about soteriology and we seemed to agree with each other. Now however, he seems to believe that Amillennialism goes against the Bible and gave me the examples and challenges I posted earlier.

His challenge to me however, I do not see where Amillennalism would go against the Gospel like he accused. Scratching my head on that issue.

Tom

Tom #58368 Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:10 PM
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For those who are interested, I just received some further information from this person. I think some of it shows a bit more of where he is coming from.

If I am correct, he holds to NCT and judging from that. The last person I had contact with, that held to NCT I was left with a bitter taste in my mouth.

What do you think?

Quote
First of all, I’m not adispensationalist nor am I a covenant theologian. Those are not the only two systematic theologyies. Also, Calvinism has nothing to do with us. Also, the idea that has been around a long time that eschatology is not an essential is not something you will find in scripture. It is extremely important, because our Lord made it clear that it was. Now, the gospel is of FIRST importance, as Scripture explicitly says, but we have to remember what is included in the gospel. The essence of the gospel is the imputed righteousness of Jesus. But that is just the essence. There are many more aspects to the gospel, including the details surrounding his return. Remember: Jesus warned us in his Olivet discourse to know the details. He told us he was telling us in advance, so that we would not be in the dark when they begin to happen. It doesn’t matter what others say if Jesus has already told us what we must do. Now, I’m not suggesting that I don’t get any details incorrect or that other positions are damnable. I just don’t consider amillennialism to be a position at all for the reasons I have repeatedly said. There are many other positions which I find to be non-compelling, but at least they have an exegetical basis for them. I should also point out that the apostle Paul also said in second Thessalonians 3 Comma after he had written much on eschatology:

“If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.” So, perhaps, you can see how it is that a person who totally disregards Eschatology Or writes it off as being merely symbolical or spiritual without finding its literal meaning in the Scriptures gets under my skin. We should be helping each other to understand what is written, not disregarded. Blessings

Tom


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