(Please note, the videos I tried to post a few times, did not show up. However I think people will get the gist of what I am saying.)
One of the Reformed sites I participate in mostly have people who adhere to the 1689 LBCF, but they also have people who adhere to the WCF. Up until a few days ago, I agreed with most of what they said, mainly because the Bible seems to be central in the topics of discussion.
That is until the following was posted. Which started a conversation that basically says a vote for either the Republicans or the Democrats, is going against walking in faith.
While I don’t expect to be able to change any minds; the discussion does show me I still have a lot to learn on this particular topic. A topic that if they are correct, it would seem to me that if they are consistent, they would never vote.
With that in mind; if anyone has anything they believe would be helpful, to me in thinking through these issues. I am all ears. I am a person who believes in voting “policy over person or party.” I don’t believe there is a person or party in all my voting years, that checks all the boxes when it comes to policy. Though there are policies that are absolutely essential.
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One of the dangers of living in a formerly Christian culture that is rapidly decaying is that you can begin to think there are no more lines to be crossed, that there is a good political side and a bad political side and it’s obvious who Christians should stand with. But this view isn’t supported by Scripture, There comes a point where the “good political party” is corrupt as well and their idolatry excludes joining with them. We want to argue that in many situations we’ve come to that place.
In this episode, we discuss the pluralism and idolatry of the Republican Party and how its embracing of homosexuality and accepting that abortion is not murder show their lack of interest in retaining God in their knowledge. And Romans 1 is critical here because it tells us in this passage that refusing to retain the knowledge of God is what keeps us from falling into abject depravity. And this is where the Republican party is headed. So this is directed to believers who are in denial. Do you understand that the wrath of God is against them? If you go among them, it must be to call them to repentance, not to clap for their candidates and their policies. And if you join with them, you should expect God’s judgment to be upon you as well.”
It was also pretty clear that they believe that voting for the Republican for the sake of expediency is encouraging the reprobate.
I chimed in the discussion and showed what I believed concerning why I would vote Republican if I was an American. I also provided a 1/2 hour video basically explaining why I took that stand.
Several watched the video and one said he was very disappointed (indicating that he is a fan of the podcast); because they obviously were voting for the sake of expediency, not honouring God. He called it pure pragmatism.
Here is a quote from the response to the video.
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Republican platform didn’t just shift to ungodliness. It has been as long as it has countenanced pluralism.
This interview is sad. “His position on abortion is abominable. Doesn’t mean we can’t vote for him.”
“My vote isn’t a sacred type of activity… and that’s not pure pragmatism…”
Come on, man! Show me Scripture that overturned Romans 3:8 if you are going to make these claims!
“Voting is not a sacred activity” does not exonerate you from the fact that voting is most certainly not a morally neutral act! The argumentation is facile and i frankly expect more from Founders men who should know better.
God does not divorce our political behavior from its moral implications and the Word gives much instruction to the believer concerning selecting of leaders.
It is exactly this kind of compromise by Christians that has led us to the selection of leaders we now have.
I'll make this quick since taking any real time would be silly.
1. If those in authority have to be "moral" giants before they can in good conscience be voted for, then who could possibly be a viable candidate?? 2. Those who choose to not vote because none are qualified by their requirements which they claim is Scripturally mandated (good luck in proving that premise ) have no right to complain about the consequences of their refusal to participate in the process. 3. Do any of these cry babies work for an employer who isn't the epitome of righteousness? Hypocrites... they CHOSE to work for pagan or less than perfectly moral employers. 4. Do any of these self-righteous individuals vote in local elections? Did they vote for someone who meets their requirements of moral superiority? 5. These individuals have the freedom to move to another country where their ideals flourish... hmmm and where on this earth would that be? 6. Lastly, using Rom 3:8 as a proof text would be laughable if it wasn't so pitiful. Sound biblical exegesis has evidently been nearly totally lost in these last days it appears.
Hey, here's an idea!! Ask these marvelous individuals why they don't run for President of the United States or Premier of Canada and show us all what the perfect candidate is?
Thankyou, what you wrote are right along the lines I was thinking and actually said basically some of.
The basic reason I enquired here, is because these people are normally very solid. Especially one of them, who I normally really respect and who has supported me before in what I have said on other subjects.
Tom, there is a good discussion about this surrounding Megan Basham’s book called Shepherds for Sale about Big Eva - however, if you take a good hard look at the high profile preachers on “the right” during Covid and other issues they are not as faithful as you would think. They just hide it better or are more subtle and nuanced.
I would say, on paper, and probably in practice, Democrats are worse. But if you do some homework our liberties have been deeply affected by both the left-establishment Zionist movement as well as the rights. If we are human cattle, dirty gentiles or merely a byproduct of the Big Bang, aren’t we pretty expendable?
Not all atheists, agnostics and secularists think this way. But the most powerful do. Kamala Harris is big on population control. Maybe Trump could care less about it. But you can’t serve 2 masters.
This is why I struggle with 2KT- we cannot serve 2 masters. Obviously the secular vocation / domain is not a sacred domain as in Church but I don’t see how a Christian can hold a leadership role in government without compromise nor do I see the secular as neutral territory. They are ultimately serving their master. This is why things turn bad. The leadership ultimately serves a different master behind the scenes.
But God will use that to His Own Glory!
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sun Aug 11, 20245:41 PM.
Thankyou, what you wrote are right along the lines I was thinking and actually said basically some of.
The basic reason I enquired here, is because these people are normally very solid. Especially one of them, who I normally really respect and who has supported me before in what I have said on other subjects.
Tom
So if he has a good track record, what is it you take issue with? That he’s voting based on his views or that he’s not? You can’t vilify him if he believes his facts are correct - you try to convince him his facts are wrong. If he’s holding his nose and voting anyway, do you have a problem with that?
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sun Aug 11, 20245:45 PM.
On paper and how they present themselves, the GOP has a much better platform. That’s not even debatable. How it often turns out is a different story. But on the issues, it’s not even close. So either remain there and vote accordingly or dig deeper and see how you feel.
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sun Aug 11, 20246:11 PM.
The problem isn’t that he is not going to vote. Rather because he says a vote for ether party is a vote for the lesser of two evils and therefore still sinful. This means, that this person is adamant that if someone votes for Trump; they are sinning. Tom
I am actually becoming a fan of Megan Basham and have watched her on a number of podcasts now. Her book is also on my reading list. Some of what she has said are already things I knew about.
As of previously faithful pastors, unfortunately what she is saying is true. Tim Keller has been someone I have avoided for years.
About 2KT, one of the things I found out from studying the issue. Are many who hold to 2KT today are actually R2KT. For example, ‘The Gospel Coalition’ largely holds to R2KT and complied to government Lockdowns during Covid. However, historic 2KT such as what was held by Luther and Calvin and by people such as Samual Waldron are not the same. Sam Waldron for example has written against closing Churches and has written a lot on Roman 13.
I am not at this time going to talk about whether Historic 2KT is biblical. Yet, a lot of people have no idea about these differences.
This person has a right to abstain from voting in elections, abeit on skewed ideas. However, he does not have the privilege of complaining about how horrible things are due to the government's evil intents. After all, it is God who is to blame, right? He's in control of all things. What he seems to ignore is that God supplies the MEANS so that we can participate in the unfolding of His providence. If a man will not work, then he cannot eat.
The problem isn’t that he is not going to vote. Rather because he says a vote for ether party is a vote for the lesser of two evils and therefore still sinful. This means, that this person is adamant that if someone votes for Trump; they are sinning. Tom
That’s stupid.
I would refrain from voting cause I don’t like being lied to not because I think they are supporting sin, which they probably are (typically in contrast to what they espouse), but which I obviously don’t support.
The GOP platform is actually pretty sound, they just don’t follow through or circumvent (when it matters most).
Last edited by Anthony C.; Wed Aug 14, 202412:13 PM.
About 2KT, one of the things I found out from studying the issue. Are many who hold to 2KT today are actually R2KT. For example, ‘The Gospel Coalition’ largely holds to R2KT and complied to government Lockdowns during Covid. However, historic 2KT such as what was held by Luther and Calvin and by people such as Samual Waldron are not the same. Sam Waldron for example has written against closing Churches and has written a lot on Roman 13.
I am not at this time going to talk about whether Historic 2KT is biblical. Yet, a lot of people have no idea about these differences.
Tom
Yeah, I agree.
Last edited by Anthony C.; Wed Aug 14, 202412:16 PM.
I don’t know if all this is true. But the lesser evil bar should have a threshold. It may go too low. As much as Trump is maligned, he is never disqualified… I think the media is more coordinated than we think (related to both “sides”). I’d rather dig than blindly trust and comply…
I feel we are being specifically conditioned.
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@realDonaldTrump affirms week 15 which accounts for 94% of all babies murdered under Roe since 1973 /60 million of the 64 million. His male pastor married to a man was platformed by him His full term. That same pastor was chair of clergy advocacy board of planned parenthood from…
Tom, there is a good discussion about this surrounding Megan Basham’s book called Shepherds for Sale about Big Eva - however, if you take a good hard look at the high profile preachers on “the right” during Covid and other issues they are not as faithful as you would think. They just hide it better or are more subtle and nuanced.
I would say, on paper, and probably in practice, Democrats are worse. But if you do some homework our liberties have been deeply affected by both the left-establishment Zionist movement as well as the rights. If we are human cattle, dirty gentiles or merely a byproduct of the Big Bang, aren’t we pretty expendable?
Not all atheists, agnostics and secularists think this way. But the most powerful do. Kamala Harris is big on population control. Maybe Trump could care less about it. But you can’t serve 2 masters.
This is why I struggle with 2KT- we cannot serve 2 masters. Obviously the secular vocation / domain is not a sacred domain as in Church but I don’t see how a Christian can hold a leadership role in government without compromise nor do I see the secular as neutral territory. They are ultimately serving their master. This is why things turn bad. The leadership ultimately serves a different master behind the scenes.
But God will use that to His Own Glory!
Last edited by Anthony C.; Thu Aug 15, 202412:44 PM.
Anthony I would like to touch on one aspect you mentioned, that upon reading again I missed before.
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Obviously the secular vocation / domain is not a sacred domain as in Church but I don’t see how a Christian can hold a leadership role in government without compromise nor do I see the secular as neutral territory. They are ultimately serving their master. This is why things turn bad. The leadership ultimately serves a different master behind the scenes.
Concerning a Christian holding a leadership role in the government without compromise.
I believe that if Christians do not at least seek to get involved in politics; how can we as Christians expect non-Christians to uphold the things we believe are absolutes? Do not misunderstand me; it may be that because a Christian refuses to compromise the essentials; they may not be voted in. Yet, that is in God’s hands not ours. Politics, for the Christian is not for the faint at heart. Yet, for those who believe they can make a difference in that field. I believe God can use them.
I believe Pastor Lane Tipton preaches a view on civil affairs closest to what Calvin did including the 2nd use of the law for order to prevail. The 2KT adherents fail to acknowledge the corruptibility of man and various institutions.
He notes that civil government is a sanctioned means to maintain order and enable the gospel to go out freely (common grace). See 1 Peter 2.
He notes the 3 major Christian views of the state. 1. State is evil - Anarchy 2. State is Godly - Theonomy 3 State serves a good purpose - yet is corruptible. Unnamed, but consistent with Reformed teaching.
Pastor Tipton noted to me personally that 2KT fails to acknowledge the corruptibility of the state and how it can become beastly not unlike Babylon. (We are very aligned on this). A failure to see this can enable Covid policy to decimate the church (just one example of the potential and historical harm).
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sun Sep 01, 20247:32 PM.
I think they should get involved. Local elections, school boards, etc. They should. I think having 2 major parties with big dollars and media alliances gets problematic. It’s hard to know who anyone really is and what they truly stand for. But we can only discern so much. The system is what it is at this point.
) have no right to complain about the consequences of their refusal to participate in the process.
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