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#6012 Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:49 PM
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I just finished reading the article, "Rock'n'Roll, the Bible, and the Mind." As one of the "young people," I have to say the author makes a number of pertinent observations. I have been raised on a diet of rock'n'roll music---it's what my parents and peers listen to. But I've never been quite as interested in music as most of my peers, which is why I don't own an extensive collection of albums and largely why I have never engaged in music file swapping on the Internet. Perhaps that has been a blessing of sorts. I've never really questioned rock music as a style---but then, that seems to be exactly what draws one in. I can think of a number of songs I like for the tune but despise the lyrics. And "Christian rock" almost always seems ridiculous to me. What do you all think, especially those of you "young people" like me? Is it going too far to say that Christians should avoid rock music altogether, or should I destroy what meagre collection of rock music I have?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #6013 Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:13 AM
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Avoid it like the plague. IMHO there is no such thing as Christian Rock-n-Roll. There is Christian music and there is RR, but when you mix them you do not get CRR. You may get CCR (Credence Clearwater Revival), but not CRR (Christian Rock-n-Roll) [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

Historically speaking the Church has always protected its worship. Some like Calvin hired song writers to write correct theological sound music.The Christian church did not employ instrumental music in its public worship for nearly 1200 years after Christ. Calvin said,

In Popery there was a ridiculous and unsuitable imitation [of the Jews]. While they adorned their temples, and valued themselves as having made the worship of God more splendid and inviting, they employed organs, and many other such ludicrous things, by which the Word and worship of God are exceedingly profaned, the people being much more attached to those rites than to the understanding of the divine Word....
We need one instrument: the peaceful word of adoration, not harps or drums or pipes or trumpets, said St. Clement of Alexandria around 200 A.D. Charles H. Spurgeon upheld an apostolic simplicity of worship--no instruments. He once said, I had just as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery. The term A cappella comes from Latin, meaning, in the style of the church. While I do think some instruments are proper and may be used, these historical facts (and there are several more) reveal much about the early Church's view of worship. They protected it for they understood its importance. Maybe the heart need be the only instrument in worship making grateful heartfelt melodies when reflecting on God's great Person and works done for His glory.

Next, theologically Rock-n-Roll in the Church is man-centered, it takes away from the covenantal aspect of worship, it takes away the sense of awe and majesty of God in true worship, replacing it with some cheap emotional high, and it takes away from the Word preached, for Rock-n-Roll comes to be the drawing card for people to come and not the Word of God preached.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6014 Sun Sep 28, 2003 2:18 PM
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While I disagree with some of what was said, I do agree that rock music in church takes away from God and Him being the focus. And it does make church services man-centered.<br><br>My disagreement comes cuz I like rock music. I don't think people who don't are going to hell (and I've heard people say pretty much that) and I don't think they are wrong. As Solomon says that there is a time for crying and a time for dancing, I think the same holds true for styles of music as well. Just my opinion.

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Kyle:

I'm not young anymore, but I was once and was at one time into music of this type, but never to the extent that some are or were, nor was there the variety and depth available in the sixties and seventies when this got started and I was in college. Even so, the effects were not by any means healthy. The enemy is able to, and does, use music of all types, including folk, ballads, pop and other genre to send a false message, though the route there is often lying lyrics blended with pleasant tunes. Much of the music of the period in which I grew up was anti authority and rebellious in nature.

When I went back to school for a second degree and did some work with young people some ten or so years ago I was exposed to the more modern and extreme versions of this phenomena. One young person who I worked with was into a type of music that I think was called metalic rock, its been a while so I may not have that right and I have not stayed in touch with this area. This young person was heavily influenced by this type of music and I can say without any hesitation at all that one of the pieces that she asked me to listen to was satanic. I'm not talking about the lyrics only, I'm refering to the sound itself. I listened to it for only a minute or so and turned it off and burned it. It was evil, and it was obvious that it was evil.

Not all of rock n roll of course even approaches this type of music in it's overt tendency toward evil of course, but I believe the subtlety of the enemy is such that he offers that which is the mildest form of the poison which any given person will accept and then gradually increases the dose so that the unwary is slowly but surely drugged. Even if the material that a person listens to doesn't advance to that extreme stage, there is a quality to to the sound that is mind deadening and irreverent and which appeals to the baser instincts, and the lyrics are inevitable falacious.

Psalms, Hymns and spiritual songs in the Biblical sense are the only thing that should be allowed into the minds of those that desire to be holy, in my view.

Gerry

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In reply to:
As Solomon says that there is a time for crying and a time for dancing, I think the same holds true for styles of music as well. Just my opinion.

And a time always to obey God.



Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6017 Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:30 PM
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I don't think God says not to listen to rock music [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]

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In reply to:
I don't think God says not to listen to rock music wink

1 John 2:15-16 (ASV) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Romans 12:1-2 (ASV) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your spiritual service. And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (ASV) "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
What redeeming qualities can one find in "Rock 'n' Roll"? I was in the industry for several years and could have made the "big bucks". I am privy to what is behind the music and why it is so appealing to the flesh. I tell you from experience, that this "style" of music is like an opiate; it controls the soul.

In His Grace,


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CovenantInBlood #6019 Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:20 AM
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I have to say, I find the arguments against rock music pretty darn convincing, especially as regards using it in worship. (Doesn't seem to fit within the regulative principle, really.) I want to study a little more on the subject, though. Anyone have recommendations?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #6020 Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:43 AM
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Some Good books: <br><br><ul>With Reverence and Awe by DG Hart and John Muether<br>Gospel Worship by Jeremiah Burroughs<br>Worship, Reformed According to Scripture by Hughes Oliphant Old[/LIST]


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6021 Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:59 AM
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I was your original metal banger before Christ. When I first became a Christian (Fundamental legalistic Christian) I did the typical barrel burning of the Rock and Roll records (I weep, when I reflect back upon all of that good music I destroyed, oh well) and I began listening to the typical pop Christian music, with a foray into Stryper. Interestingly enough, as I matured in my faith, and eventually left the legalistic fundamentalism, I came to see that CCM is all fluff for the most part. I think it was Steve Camp who called it "Jesus is your boy/girlfriend type music." I can't stomach to listen to any of it except for maybe Caedmon's Call and Fernando Ortega. Through my maturing as a believer, I have mellowed in my music taste. I love some country (Please, no "what do you get when you play country music backward" jokes), and I actually went back and re-collected some of my "burned" music, stuff like Sting and Rush. That is probably as about has secular and hard as I get. I also enjoy some selective movie sound tracks. However, what I have really come to love is Bach and Vivaldi. Classical music is just plain awesome. I would hope that the younger folks here would give it a listen. That stuff is just tremendous, especially if it is performed well.

Bach Rocks !!!

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
fredman #6022 Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:15 AM
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Question: What has 16 teeth and an IQ of 31?

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Answer:The first 3 rows of a Willy Nelson Concert.



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CovenantInBlood #6023 Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:20 AM
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Have you read all the articles on The Highway that deal with the issue of music and/or worship? You can access that section by clicking here: Ecclesiology: The Doctrine of the Church.

There are other articles as well which you can find by using the Advanced Search here: Search The Highway. Just type in music and you should find them all. grin

In His Grace,


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Pilgrim #6024 Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:08 AM
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I'll be sure to look through those articles. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]


Kyle

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J_Edwards #6025 Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:10 AM
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Thanks. I added this post to my favorites for future referrence. Before long I'll have a hefty list of books to look into beside my textbooks . . .


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #6026 Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:36 PM
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Hey Everyone,
I used to be a huge Punk Rocker. After my conversion I found that a lot of my music caused my mind to dwell on anger to much do I gave my collection away. I still really love the Clash and Ramones. But I can't get myself to listen to Ozzie any more. Every now and then I have to purge my collection of crap that I bought with out really thinking about it. But my real question is that I really dig Jazz. Rock 'n Roll is always going to be a particular draw for me. But is Jazz evil?
Aaron

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As far as I know, Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond weren't known for dancing around the sacrificial snake pit in their sheep leggings. They did smoke, but that is one of those up-in-the-air kind of sins. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
#6028 Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:28 PM
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Some basic meanings of the term JAZZ: empty rhetoric or insincere or exaggerated talk, have sexual intercourse with, a genre of popular music that originated in New Orleans around 1900 and developed through increasingly complex styles. Now, ask yourself why they call it jazz and not something else? From where was the term and music born? Does it have any association with empty rhetoric or insincere or exaggerated talk or sex? Do any of the lyrics or long instrumentals match these definitions? peace

I too listened to much RnR and Jazz and assorted other music (my dad was Country Western nut [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]--you know you play the records backwards and your dog, your trailer, and your wife come back in that order....). Music should worship and glorify God and not man's fallen nature...it is that simple! If there is not enough of God for one to enjoy that one must supplement his listening to something other than Him, then one must ask how serious his relationship with God really is? scratchchin You are not only saved by Christ alone, but saved unto a lifestyle of Christ alone.


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Pilgrim #6029 Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:35 PM
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Thank you


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J_Edwards #6030 Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:04 PM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Music should worship and glorify God and not man...it is that simple! If there is not enough of God for one to enjoy that one must supplement his listening to something other than Him, then one must ask how serious his relationship with God really is? You are not only saved by Christ alone, but saved unto a lifestyle of Christ alone.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>So Joe, just to clarify what you are saying in my mind, are you maintaining that all music must be worship music and that alone? There can be no great chorals or orchestral pieces if they are not meant for worshiping God? No opera? etc...

J_Edwards #6031 Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:50 PM
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Dear Joe,
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]You are not only saved by Christ alone, but saved unto a lifestyle of Christ alone.

Are you sure that is the best way of expressing this, Joe? If I take you literally--it's an old habit of mine--I cannot distinguish what you are saying from the what the monastics have always said.

I do not have a lifestyle of Christ alone. Every day the majority of my time, energy and resources are allocated to, among others:

Meeting the needs of my Wife
Meeting the needs of my Children
Meeting the needs of my Body for sustenance and health care
Meeting the needs of my Employer (and a pagan at that!)
Reading Bible to self and family (whew! maybe that one qualifies)
Praying with self and family (make that two!)
Playing music (not only Bach, but occasionally the scandalous Mozart and Beethoven, not to mention Gilbert & Sullivan (well, S. was a Christian, I guess))
Paying bills (to non-Christian companies, primarily)
Reading the news from the secular media
Thinking about how to replace the dining room ceiling, a big chunk of which landed on the table last Saturday (for which we have praised God that no one got hurt, so that may get partial credit?)
and frequently
Reading, and Writing responses to, posts on this site

If I take you literally, when you say [color:red]If there is not enough of God for one to enjoy that one must supplement his listening to something other than Him, then one must ask how serious his relationship with God really is, I am in major trouble, because I hear much through the day (not just music, mind you) that is other than Him.

Could you please clarify your terms?

P.S. One of our newly-adopted daughter's favorite songs--in addition to "Nothing But the Blood of Jesus" and "Jesus Loves Me"--is:
"Did You Ever See A Lassie?" Do I infer from your statement [color:red]Music should worship and glorify God and not man...it is that simple! that I am leading her astray, when we sing that song as we walk around the block, swinging her THIS WAY and THAT WAY?


Last edited by Paul_S; Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:10 PM.

In Christ,
Paul S
CovenantInBlood #6032 Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:30 AM
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I like listening to punk, rave, dance and rock. But I would'nt listen to it in church though.

Have you heard the so-called christian band POD (payable on death)? The music varies from heavy rock to melodic ballards. Some of the lyrics are pretty good too but in the main they are rank arminians , as are all so-called christian rock bands.

Country , jazz and classical is music to slit your wrists over IMHO. Its so depressing .

In church I would prefer no music at all , just singing.

howard

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In reply to:
I do not have a lifestyle of Christ alone. Every day the majority of my time, energy and resources are allocated to, among others:

Does not a lifestyle of Christ alone include submitting yourself to one another in love: thus loving others, caring for your household, working for pagan employers with singleness of heart, ....(Eph 5:21--6::18)? What so ever you do, do all to the glory of God is part of that lifestyle!



Reformed and Always Reforming,
#6034 Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:59 AM
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In reply to:
So Joe, just to clarify what you are saying in my mind, are you maintaining that all music must be worship music and that alone? There can be no great chorals or orchestral pieces if they are not meant for worshiping God? No opera? etc...

No. What I mean is that we should listen to music that has "truth" in it and that is edifying to God. Much of what I see in classical music (Classical music is not the only music that displays these types of lyrics....)--the words--do not seem to corrupt the image of God or glorify the fallen image of man in their lyrics .......I can sing a love song to my wife (she would throw me out of th house. I only sing solos, so low you can not hear me rofl ) and be completely Scriptural as long as it was truthful, et. al.

Though the Bible is truth, it is not the ONLY truth...... I am typing this on a computer...this is truth--(1) I am typing (2) this is a computer, but neither typing or computers are in the Scripture...... Music should be truthful and not glorify the sins of man and then I believe it is OK, but still it is on a case by case basis for me.



Reformed and Always Reforming,
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From what I heard, POD broke up cuz the drummer got tired of 2 of the other guys drinking all the time. I will admit though that before I heard that stuff, I was a pretty big fan. Now I'm just like whatever and don't listen to them much anymore.

Last edited by Kalled2Preach; Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:21 AM.
J_Edwards #6036 Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:39 AM
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Dear Joe,

Of course I agree with you, and of course I assumed you were saying the same thing earlier. The point I was belaboring was your that you had used several consecutive blanket dictums which, taken at face value, could lead one of tender conscience into either legalism or despair. Your responses to my post and Prestor John's, in contrast, flesh the issue out much more helpfully.


In Christ,
Paul S
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Howard! I have to say I'm somewhat surprised with your musical tastes. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]

Yes, I have heard of P.O.D.; in fact, I have a copy of their album, Satellite. Haven't listened to it in awhile, though. I got turned off pretty quick after finding out about some of their connections to Rastafarianism.

As far as country, jazz, and classical---I can stand some country, but for the most part, no. Jazz I don't particularly enjoy. I do like some classical, though.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
willemina #6038 Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:09 PM
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And to sum it up, it stinks<br><br>


gil
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What is so surprising about my musical tastes ?<br><br>howard

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In reply to:
I like listening to punk, rave, dance and rock. . . . What is so surprising about my musical tastes?

Howard,

If you are serious about your first statement concerning your "likes" in music (if that is an appropriate term), then I'm surprised you asked the question why anyone would be surprised that a professing Christian would say such a thing! Let me put it to you bluntly . . . How can ANYONE "like" anything even remotely connected to "Punk Rock" or "Rave", never mind listen to that assaulting noise? Frankly, I find it insulting to my intelligence. Even the name, "PUNK" I find offensive. The name is quite descriptive of what it is, I must admit . . . brainless noise with an attitude. I'm sorry, but I simply cannot...... no, WILL NOT believe that the Lord Christ, if He were here on earth now, would accompany you to a PUNK ROCK concert and/or participate in a RAVE. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]



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Pilgrim #6041 Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:38 AM
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I am saddened that you feel that way about certain music Pilgrim.

To you it may be an assaulting noise, but to others...............

Music does not have the same effect on me as it clearly does you .

Perhaps its an age thing ? (I'm 43)

howard

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Howard I too am surprised that one such as yourself that aspires to be so conservative in other areas of your theology would mix such with PUNK rock and such. What do you find godly edifying in Punk?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6043 Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:08 AM
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Its the music I like not so much the lyrical content , though I did when unsaved.

Whats edifying in classical music country, jazz, opera etc, etc ?

Sounds to me like some are going down the legalism path on this one.

howard

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Clash ? Ramones ?<br><br>Good taste !<br><br>(Something about England , the Clash , is one of my favorite songs)<br><br>howard

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In reply to:
Its the music I like not so much the lyrical content , though I did when unsaved

So you are willing to renew your mind with bad lyrics because you assume the beat of the music is edifying to God and your flesh enjoys it. How do you separate the lyrics from the music? Do they not bind together as ONE unholy unit of false edification? Is this not the method of music and lyrics to make one cohesive unit of fleshly pleasure (the lyrics by your own admission are not good).



Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Joe, Punk music seems to trouble YOU very much.<br><br>Punk music does not trouble ME at all.<br><br>You appear to be in some sort of bondage about this .<br><br>I would however not play it "publicly " for fear of upsetting those young in the Faith.<br><br>I especially like listening to very LOUD music when I'm doing the house-work and the neighbours are'nt at home.<br><br>Whats edyfying about other music ? <br><br>howard<br><br>

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Punk music? Are you like, for serious about this? Or are you, as they say, pulling our leg? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bash.gif" alt="bash" title="bash[/img]<br><br>You sure are a conundrum howard.<br>


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
fredman #6048 Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:56 AM
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Are'nt we all ?

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In reply to:
Joe, Punk music seems to trouble YOU very much.

Assisting my brother in watching out for his individual sanctification is exceedingly important.

In reply to:
Whats edyfying about other music ?

Proper Christian music edifies my soul and glorifies God.

But, Howard YOU NEVER answered my question?

So you are willing to renew your mind with bad lyrics because you assume the beat of the music is edifying to God and your flesh enjoys it. How do you separate the lyrics from the music? Do they not bind together as ONE unholy unit of false edification? Is this not the method of music and lyrics to make one cohesive unit of fleshly pleasure (the lyrics by your own admission are not good).



Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6050 Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:24 AM
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Proper Christian music ?<br><br>Whats that ?<br><br>Do you mean Psalms , hymns and spiritual songs that are used in church ?<br><br>I can sepreate the music from the lyrics Joe . Its called selective listening.<br><br>Nowadays , I mainly listen to dance and rave which contain no lyrics , just fast and loud.<br><br>My unsaved background as an outlaw biker with guns and drugs etc, etc , serves me well that I can WITNESS to hells angels, punks, winnos,prostitutes et al .<br><br>Secular music causes ME as much trouble as spilt milk Joe. It has no detrimental effect on my Christian walk as it so obviously does you. YOU therefore should avoid it.<br><br>I avoid classical, jazz opera, country etc, etc, because I JUST DONT LIKE IT. It makes me depressed . Some folk like it - I am happy for them .<br><br>howard

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In reply to:
Secular music causes ME as much trouble as spilt milk Joe. It has no detrimental effect on my Christian walk as it so obviously does you. YOU therefore should avoid it.

Howard you once again have JUMPED to an untrue conclusion. I use to listen to RnR and such, but now "I do not desire" to as it is not edifying. I DO avoid such music that does not HONOR God, it is that simple. Apparently, you need something else.

I am sure you know NONE of the words of the songs you listen to Howard (and you did say you listened to them in the prior posts)--it is impossible for you to separate them that fully. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/ponder.gif" alt="ponder" title="ponder[/img]



Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #6052 Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:41 AM
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Today, I have been online reading theology with music on in the background for the last 8 hours. This I do on average 5 hours a day 7 days a week .

It actually helps me concentrate - like chewing gum does to some folk.

The Lord Jesus Christ will not send me to hell for listening to music Joe-any kind of music.

I have mentioned elsewhere on this board that I have a bi-polar brain (dis)order. This enables (disables) me to do and think several things at once. It does "backfire" on occassion but a brief spell in the local Mental Institute does the trick.

Philippians 4:13 kjv

howard

#6053 Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:09 AM
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Howard no one to my knowledge has mentioned hell until your post above. That is not the point. For the Christian sanctification is the ONLY follow-up to justification and after this glorification. Paul had some novel words concerning part of this process:

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
I cannot change your mind Howard, but only direct you to verses that IMHO weigh heavily against PUNK and ...you being bipolar or not, this IS the Word of God..

BTW, you do have a great testimony of deliverance and I do not mean to attempt to belittle that in any form. I also desire for our continual deliverance in sanctification and thus, we must apply all the Scriptures, including those above.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#6054 Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:09 AM
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Jazz is far too broad of a term to be used to describe any particular kind of music. Under that one word fall swing, bebop, cool jazz, acid jazz, free jazz, big band, fusion, blues, dixie land....just to name a few.

I was a music performance major for a few years and have been listening to and playing "jazz" all my life. About 70 percent (just a guesstimation) of all jazz you'll ever hear has no lyrics. For the other 30 percent that does it is easy to discern whether you can glorify God through listening to the music. For the majority, though, that has no lyrics we are presented with a dilemma. The listener, in my opinion, has a limited "musical license" to allow him to associate certain connotations with music. Obviously this isn't possible if the music has lyrics, or if the music is publicly known to have been written for a certain purpose or to promote a certain feeling. This too presents a problem, for we don't know the intentions of all composers.

For instance, I do not listen to or promote Richard Wagner because of his strong ties with Nazism. Another example, I really enjoy listening to John Coltrane who was converted later in life and composed/played music in regards to that. Most of the composers will not be that clear though, and that is where I think our musical license comes in.

So to answer your question, "is Jazz evil?" I would answer, "No, not in itself." But that is not an absolute answer. It's situational.

Chris

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They way you've presented yourself here simply does not seem to fit the profile of one who enjoys punk and rave music! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] That's all there is to it, really.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#6056 Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:47 PM
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But I don't dig DK as much any more.

J_Edwards #6057 Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:57 AM
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In my opinion, I think one can apply those verses and say that punk is ok if the lyrics are edifying to God because I think it is wisdom to use whatever tools are possible to get the Gospel to unbelievers.

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Unfortunately, as is most always the case when this topic comes up for discussion, most everyone here is arguing either for or against a certain "style" of music on subjective grounds and/or pragmatism. I firmly believe that one can and MUST scrutinize all forms of music from an objective standard and then bring in some of the more salient subjective elements. Of course, if one begins with a presupposition that everything is a-moral, then one can make a case to use or do anything as long as the intent is to glorify God, e.g., opening a "Christian bordello". [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]

It doesn't matter whether one likes of dislikes a type of music. What does matter is if the music is good in and of itself and most importantly, does it reflect God's attributes and will (aka: glorify God).

In His Grace,


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CovenantInBlood #6059 Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:00 AM
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I was indeed a punk before Jonny Rotten set fire to his toothbrush.

Now, as a Christian saved by The Blood of my Lord Jesus Christ , music has no dominion OVER ME as it might previously of had. Music is simply another tool to be used when needed , much the same as chocolate or tv or golf or hats...............IMHO

MOST christians that are known to me personally, will understand this comment as I hope you will do some day.

howard

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Howard,<br><br>I understand what you mean. It just was a bit of a surprise to me.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #6061 Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:18 AM
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Life is full of surprises Kyle , get used to them . <br><br>I know you understand.<br><br>howard<br>

#6062 Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:31 PM
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Oi Howard

#6063 Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:52 PM
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Gabba , Gabba.

#6064 Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:57 PM
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What is edifying about other music, Howard?
Nothing in itself. Music is amoral. It is the content that is moral. I like bluegrass, which is frankly just as loud and fast as much rock music. And bluegrass gospel is not exactly slow. Rock music hurts my ears.

One bit of advice...we have been down this path before. Howard, you likely were not hear but this topic was covered in great detail earlier. Check it out if the thread is available.

And have a great day and weekend, everybody!

Steve


Grace is not common.
#6065 Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:04 PM
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Ooops, sorry, I did not catch the entire drift, I thought Howard was discussing "Christian" rock music.

No, Howard, people can NOT separate the lyrics from the music. I have never known anybody who could. That being said, secular music is not inherently bad.

Music without lyrics is amoral provided it does not cause you aggression. If rave music does not, then it is fine. It causes me to break out in hives [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img], so I guess it is a problem for me? I'm sure listening to me play Foggy Mountain Breakdown on the banjo might do the same to you....

Steve C


Grace is not common.
Pilgrim #6066 Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:09 PM
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"What redeeming qualities can one find in "Rock 'n' Roll"?"

1) SOME are very talented musicians. We have one at our church. And he has written some very impressive songs (that are NOT played during the service.)

2) There does exist some very complex music. As a musician (albeit a bad one) I can appreciate the redeeming qualities of complex and challenging music.

Blessings,
Steve


Grace is not common.
li0scc0 #6067 Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:30 PM
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Steve,

Yes, we have been down this "rock(y) road" before. And I am always amazed how anyone can claim that music is "amoral". [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]

There have been a number of articles added to The Highway that deal with music, e.g.,:

Rock & Roll, the Bible and the Mind, by Tom Allen

Evaluating Music Intended for Christian Worship and Enjoyment, by Leonard J. Seidel

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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li0scc0 #6068 Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:28 AM
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If rock music hurts your ears , dont listen to it. <br><br>howard

#6069 Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:52 AM
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In reply to:
Whats edifying in classical music country, jazz, opera etc, etc ?



Can't say anything about country, opera, jazz, etc, etc, because I don't listen to it all that much. But classical music, ah, there's an easy one. Just take a look at the lyrics to some of Vivaldi's or Bach's choral music. Bach wrote primarily for the church. In fact, he composed new pieces every week for the services. Vivaldi's "Gloria in Excelsis Deo" is a pretty good example. The lyrics are entirely, "Gloria in Excelsis Deo". That's it. Glory o God in the Highest. If you ask me, I'd say that's derned God-glorifying. Or Bach's "Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ". All to you, Lord Jesus Christ. Check out http://www.cpdl.org to find a lot more of Bach's Sacred Choral Music, or http://www.classicalarchives.com to hear the MIDI versions. Or, hey, how about Handel. "The Messiah". Or Mozart. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Amadeus means "Beloved of God". I imagine he might have been. His "Great Mass in C Minor" sounds pretty God-glorifying. But that's just my opinion.



In the midst of your sadness and woe, when you are tormented and afflicted, have comfort! God's will is done.
ReformedThinker #6070 Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:50 PM
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Dear JF2:

Amen, brother, and again I say amen.

Since you seem to be a lover of Handel's Messiah, I wonder if you might be able to help me a bit. A few years ago I had a cd of Handel's Messiah that had a copy of all the words included with it. Small print, but readable. As you know it is all scripture and there is a wonderful story behind it's composition, by Woychuck, but I'm getting off subject as usual.

Any way, I lost the cd and I wonder if you know of a good edition, I think mine was the London Philharmonic, but it wouldn't matter if it was a good quality and had the words with it. Short of that, do you know where I might get a copy of the words separately? One that came with the music would be better because I understand that the performance can vary and I would like the written copy to match the performed one as close as possible so I could follow along, but I would be willing to improvise.

Thanks in advance for anything you can advise.

Gerry

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Thanks, acts2027.

You might try http://www.naxos.com for the music. I think they have the entire Oratorio. As for the seperate lyrics, I imagine you could try www.Isaiah-40-in-the-Bible.com. They have it here, too:

http://www.worshipmap.com/lyrics/messiahtext.html


In the midst of your sadness and woe, when you are tormented and afflicted, have comfort! God's will is done.
ReformedThinker #6072 Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:19 PM
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Thank you, JF2:<br><br>I copied the text, which I much appreciate and I'm looking for another copy of the Oratorio itself.<br><br>Thanks again,<br><br>Gerry

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In reply to:
Country , jazz and classical is music to slit your wrists over



Isn't that a line in some movie?



True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#6074 Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:11 PM
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I personally only listen to Christian music. (I used to listen to Lee Ann Rimes, but not since she has "adopted" a bad character). Please note I have nothing against classical music. It is much of today's pop/rap music I have concerns about. We need to look at the songs lyrics and be discerning, even with "Christian" music

Well, here are some reasons I just listen to Christian music:

1. As I'm sure you know, music has a large impact on your mind. We often get catchy melodies in our heads, and they often come with the words. Now, would you rather have Rich Mullins' "Awesome God" stuck in your head or Shania Twain's "Man I Feel Like a Woman"? Which edifies the soul? More importantly, which glorifies God?

2. I am amazed at how many songs out there glorify the body and its desires. I am also amazed at how many songs include cuss words and taking of the Lord's Name in vain. Why is it that a restaurant can air a song that talks about sleeping with your boyfriend and yet if you air a Christian song you are considered "unprofessional" or "biased"?

3. It can spark conversations with others. If someone comes over and looks at my music or hears my radio, they see/hear Wes King, Indelible Grace, Newsong, FFH, and others. Believe me, I've seen it happen. No one has come to Christ because of it (yet), but I've had opportunities to share with them wjy I listen to what I listen to.


Philippians 4:8- "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things."


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#6075 Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:29 PM
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In reply to:
You appear to be in some sort of bondage about this You appear to be in some sort of bondage about this



Do you really think God wants His children listening to bands that desecrate His Name?

In reply to:
I would however not play it "publicly " for fear of upsetting those young in the Faith



And what if you find yourself humming one of the songs or singing some of the words? My sister listens to pop stuff, and I've caught myself more than once after a lengthy ride in the car with her humming a song that is not edifying to God. Remember, God cares very much about what we think as Christians, and also what we say as Christians.

In reply to:
Whats edyfying about other music?



Biblical Christian music is edifying because the lyrics are edifying. They are lifting up and glorifying Christ. And they can take you to the throne room of God.



True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#6076 Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:41 PM
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In reply to:
My unsaved background as an outlaw biker with guns and drugs etc, etc , serves me well that I can WITNESS to hells angels, punks, winnos,prostitutes et al .



So you listen to the music you used to listen to, the same music your unsaved friends listen to? How about finding a Christian punk band that has God-exalting lyrics? Then your friends can ask you about Whom they are singing about.

In reply to:
Secular music causes ME as much trouble as spilt milk Joe. It has no detrimental effect on my Christian walk as it so obviously does you. YOU therefore should avoid it.



Now that just sounds relativistic...



True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
J_Edwards #6077 Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:52 PM
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Amen, Joe!


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#6078 Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:50 AM
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"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."

How can your mind be transformed if you still cling to the things of the world?


In the midst of your sadness and woe, when you are tormented and afflicted, have comfort! God's will is done.
ReformedThinker #6079 Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:09 AM
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So , I cant drive a car , catch a train , read a newspaper, watch tv , listen to music, drink a beer , talk about polotics etc ,etc ?

Where do you live , in a monastry ?

howard

#6080 Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:45 AM
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Howard,
You missed my point...I DON'T listen to rock music. But unlike many on this site, I refuse to deny you the freedom to listen to it. You are totally free to listen to it.

Steve


Grace is not common.
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