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Pilgrim #6216 Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:29 AM
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I'm not easily offended Pilgrim but pretty ugly .

We all however have a pride problem - easily offended or not . This began with Adam at the Fall.

howard

Tom #6217 Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:40 PM
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Tom,<br>Good day to you!<br>Are you Jewish? If you are not the Sabbath does not apply to you, since it was given to Israel.<br>Steve


Grace is not common.
li0scc0 #6218 Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:40 PM
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Steve,

Let's for fun apply your hermeneutic consistently and thus ask: Are you Jewish? If not, then the following prohibitions or injunctions do not apply to you:
    [*]You shall have no other gods before Jehovah.[*]You shall not make any idols, nor any likeness whatsoever or any of the three persons of the Godhead. Nor, you shall not bow down or worship them.[*]You shall not use the name of God in a vain or empty manner.[*]Children must honor their parents.[*]You shall not steal.[*]You shall not commit adultery.[*]You shall not lie.[*]You shall not covet anything.[/LIST]Therefore, Gentile Christians are free to live a life of total rebellion and sinfulness. [Linked Image]

    In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim #6219 Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:00 PM
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Good afternoon!

Actually, that is not the case at all. We are under the Law of Christ, which aptly reiterates the majority of these commands.

If we are under the 10 Commandments, then we are also under the OTHER 603 Mosaic Laws. You can't pick and choose.

Fruchtenbaum aptly states, "It must be understood that the Mosaic Law is viewed in the Scriptures as a unit. The word, Torah or “Law,” is always singular when applied to the Law of Moses, although it contains 613 commandments. The same is true of the Greek word, Nomos, in the New Testament. The division of the Law of Moses into ceremonial, legal, and moral parts is convenient for the study of different types of commandments contained within it, but it is never divided this way by the Scriptures themselves. Neither is there any scriptural basis for separating the Ten Commandments from the whole 613 and making only the Ten perpetual. All 613 commandments are a single unit comprising the Law of Moses.
It is this principle of the unity of the Law of Moses that lies behind the idea of keeping the whole law in James 2:10. The Apostle’s point here is clearly that a person needs only to break one of the 613 commandments to be guilty of breaking all of the Law of Moses. And this can only be true if the Mosaic Law is a unit. If it were not, the guilt would lie only in the particular commandment violated and not in the whole Law. In other words, if one breaks a legal commandment, he is guilty of breaking the ceremonial and moral ones as well. The same is true of breaking a moral or ceremonial commandment. To bring the point closer to home, a person under the Law of Moses who eats ham is guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments, although none of the Ten says anything about ham.
In order to clearly understand the Law of Moses and its relationship to the believer (Jew or Gentile), it is necessary to view it as do the Scriptures: as a unit, one that cannot be divided into parts that are nullified and parts that are kept. Nor can certain commandments be separated in such a way as to give them a different status from other commandments."


If you want to be under the Law, go ahead...but I am hoping you have not mixed your fabrics today! Oh wait, I have! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek[/img] Leviticus 19:19

Have a great weekend,
Steve





Grace is not common.
li0scc0 #6220 Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:40 PM
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Steve,

Again... I openly challenge your hermeneutic, again! I don't recall these other "603" laws being carved in stone by the finger of God, being broken and then rewritten and stored in the Arc of the Covenant? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img] Can you kindly point that passage of Scripture out to me please? Another item which I would like you to instruct me on is where are these other 603 laws recorded before they were given to Moses? The "Ten Commandments" were not new when spoken by God and written in stone at the time of Moses. They were millennia old, e.g., the commandment prohibiting murder is first read in regard to Cain's killing of Abel, iterated again at the time of Noah, etc.. What is known as the "Ten Commandments" was a universal law recognized by all people because they are MORAL in nature, where the other "603 laws" make up the Theocratic civil and ceremonial laws; some being types and shadows but all fulfilled by Christ.

You have a nice weekend too! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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li0scc0 #6221 Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:48 PM
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li0scc0

Spoken like an antinominian.
Do you not know that the 10 commandments are part of the very character of our God?

1John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not of him."

Please don't try to tell me that the 10 commandments were not what these verses were talking about.

As believers we are not saved by obeying the commandments, but the obedience of them should become part of our character as Christians. Think about that in light of 1John 2:3-4.

Tom

li0scc0 #6222 Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:44 PM
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True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
li0scc0 #6223 Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:29 PM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]You can't pick and choose.



Indeed! As our Lord said,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17--19.)




Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
li0scc0 #6224 Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:33 AM
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Steve, Fruchtenbaum is a Judaising Arminian who is promoted by Jacob Prasch of "Moriel" ministries in Leeds England.

One word of advice - Flee.

howard

#6225 Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:57 AM
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Interesting you say he is Arminian, as he is known as a Calvinist, and, having read his works, he certainly is a Calvinist.<br>Next time, read the author before going on hearsay!<br>


Grace is not common.
CovenantInBlood #6226 Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:58 AM
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I am so glad you brought that up!<br>And you are correct, he did fulfill the law and the prophets! For if he did not, then we would still be required not to mix fabrics, we could not eat pork, etc.


Grace is not common.
Tom #6227 Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:01 AM
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Are you then keeping the Sabbath command, Tom? Your day of rest is Friday sundown through Saturday sundown?<br>Do you eat pork or shellfish, Tom? Do you also have long hair?<br>Are you advocating executing adulterers?<br>No, of course not...because, like all other covenant persons, you have arbitrarily picked and chose. <br>The Mosaic Law is over and done with, replaced by the Law of Christ.


Grace is not common.
Pilgrim #6228 Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:03 AM
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For my hermeneutic, read Robert Thomas' book on hermeneutics. <br>Thanks!


Grace is not common.
li0scc0 #6229 Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:50 AM
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Yes, the ceremonial laws need no longer be adhered to, since Christ is their fulfillment. But the moral laws still apply to the Christian life. Now, you may argue that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law and that the Christian thus has no duty to keep a Sabbath day, but to say that the Mosaic Law in toto has been done away with, i.e., abolished, is to call Christ a liar. Even the ceremonial laws were not "done away with," but are perpetually fulfilled in Christ.

Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:02 AM.

Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
li0scc0 #6230 Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:01 AM
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li0scc0,

Sorry, but I'm far more interested in YOU justifying whatever hermeneutical methodology YOU are using to obfuscate the integrity of the Moral Law of God, which was simply iterated at Sinai, having been in existence from creation and shall ever be binding upon all men until Christ returns. The "law of Christ" which you are wanting to use as an apologetic to deny the Sabbath Day in its fullness, having been changed to the "First Day of the week", to reflect the fulfillment of all that preceded it in types and shadows, is nothing other than this same Moral Law which all men everywhere from Adam to the last man is responsible to keep. As to the Sabbath Day itself, Christ made it perfectly clear that it was perpetual as He announced that He was "Lord of the Sabbath."

There will be a number of articles forthcoming, D.v. which will further defend both the perpetuity of the Sabbath and its change to the "First Day of the week". [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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