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#8670 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:59 AM
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Ron,
In reply to:
In other words, he argued well for an early date only to conclude with a late dating.Even if the late dating is the correct one, Reymond certainly never argued for it.



I came to a different conclusion. He seemed to play middle man in IMHO. Maybe I misundestood him, but in the sections that he would present an argument from an 'Early Date' defender( e.g. quoted Ken Gentry a few times), he would then follow up with an from a 'Late Date' defender(e.g. Hendriksen, Fowler, etc.). He seemed to play the fence,though in my view he seemed to favor the late date in those sections. Perhaps I was reading too much into the rebutalls to the early data. Yes, I would agree that his last few sentences were a low point. It is almost as if he just put his hand in a bag and pulled up a number. Nevertheless, I believe his outline and summary of the book of Revelations was outstanding. If you want a thorough defense of the late dating, see G. K. Beale's Commentary.

in Christ,
Carlos



"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#8671 Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:03 AM
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(Polycarp and Iranaeus held to Infant Baptism BTW , so perhaps the Apostle John did too methinks stupidme

laugh

#8672 Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:26 AM
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In reply to:
Good point Ron , but pagans are no threat to to christians .



Howard,

I'm clear on the first part thanks but I'm not sure what you are saying after the "but".

Thanks,

Ron


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In reply to:
Yes, I would agree that his last few sentences were a low point. It is almost as if he just put his hand in a bag and pulled up a number. Nevertheless, I believe his outline and summary of the book of Revelations was outstanding.



Carlos,

Well stated! I wonder if he improved on this portion in the revised addition, which I am told is substantially longer.

In His Grace,

Ron


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In reply to:
I came to a different conclusion. He seemed to play middle man in IMHO. Maybe I misundestood him, but in the sections that he would present an argument from an 'Early Date' defender( e.g. quoted Ken Gentry a few times), he would then follow up with an from a 'Late Date' defender(e.g. Hendriksen, Fowler, etc.). He seemed to play the fence,though in my view he seemed to favor the late date in those sections. Perhaps I was reading too much into the rebutalls to the early data.



Carlos,

Your assessment is correct. I stand corrected. Thank you. Reymond did play the middle man. The point I should have made was that he gave an extremely fair and thorough treatment of the early dating argument, which I thought was very persuasive indeed (to put it mildly). It was not that "he" argued for an early date, which is what I said, but rather the facts he presented, in my estimation, argued for an early date. I could have made this more clear. Then his conclusion, as you say, was pulled out of hat as it were.

Cordially,

Ron


#8675 Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:36 AM
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Sorry Ron.

Moslem countries generally do not encourage Christianity . I believe Christianity is 'forbidden' in some of them ?

Most non-Moslem countries permit the spread of the gospel (even China- more so each year) without too much hinderance .

Islam breeds Islam and the more stronghold it has the less stronghold the gospel has amongst them.

Of course , I know Gods will is being done on earth as it is in heaven , but from where I am stood , Islam will overtake Christianity in sheer numbers for the next few hundred years or so IMHO.

Roman Catholicism was Christianities biggest enemy for an entire age and Islam is our threat today and will be for quite some time perhaps.

Are there more saved people than unsaved alive today ?

What about a 1000 years ago , or 3000 , or a thousand years from now ?

Each passing day , I believe that more people reject Christ than accept Him .

#8676 Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:56 AM
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Ron,<br><br>Thanks for the kind words[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bravo.gif" alt="bravo" title="bravo[/img]. I have the revised edition. However, I don't have the first edition. Obviously, I can't comment on the differences. Although treatment is indeed substantial. I've not seen any systematics that even comes close to devoting as many pages to the book of Revelation<br>The treatment on the whole section on Revelation can almost be compared to an 'Introduction to the book of Revelation' that we see in commentaries. In fact, If my memory serves me right, it's probably longer than the one in "Introduction to the New Testament" by Leon Morris, D. Carson, and Douglas Moo.<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos<br>


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#8677 Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:58 AM
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Ron,

In reply to:
It was not that "he" argued for an early date, which is what I said, but rather the facts he presented, in my estimation, argued for an early date. I could have made this more clear. Then his conclusion, as you say, was pulled out of hat as it were



I understand what you are saying now.

in Christ,
Carlos



"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
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Marie,

Spurgeon was historic Premil as Gerry Indicated.
Here's an extensive treament on Spurgeon's eschatology by a historic premil defender.
Charles H. Spurgeon and Eschatology:
Did He Have a Discernible Millennial Position?


In regards to idea of "literal" 1000 years, read the whole book of Revelation and you will note the "SYMBOLISM" in the apocalyptic literature, even in regards to numbers. Please see the Venema article that I provided the link for . He states the case for the symbolism of 1000 years far better that I can.

In reply to:
According to the amil position, when is Armageddon? What is the mark of the Beast? Which passages pertain to the destruction of the Temple, and which pertain to the time of tribulation before Christ returns?


Rather than me answering with just one liners, I think it's much better that you get an overview of each chapter surrounding some of those issues. Here are excellent sermons by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger on those questions.
Armageddon

For mark of the beast:
Rev_13
Rev_14
(Also see Hoeksema's treament, Mark of the Beast)

As far as the issues relation to the destruction of the temple, you will have to get from someone who defends from a partial-preterist point of view. I believe that David Chilton's "Vengeance of Days" is online.

As to nature of the book of revelation, see Anthony Hoekema's writings that is on the Highway. It's good read and should answer some of the other questions, from an Amil perspective. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/readit.gif" alt="readit" title="readit[/img]
Revelation_Amil

This should keep you busy for a few weeks [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]. Take up and Read!

in Christ,
Carlos





"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#8679 Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:55 AM
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In reply to:
Sorry Ron



No need to be sorry.

In reply to:
Moslem countries generally do not encourage Christianity . I believe Christianity is 'forbidden' in some of them ?



So? Is it not true that if Christ died for every person born from this moment on, the Middle East will come to Christ in mass rather soon?

In reply to:
Islam breeds Islam and the more stronghold it has the less stronghold the gospel has amongst them.



What in your estimation is an ideal backdrop for irresistible grace and the effectual call of dead men who are elect? Dead in sin is dead in sin.

In reply to:
Of course , I know Gods will is being done on earth as it is in heaven , but from where I am stood , Islam will overtake Christianity in sheer numbers for the next few hundred years or so IMHO.



Again, you have simply ignored the fact that the unconverted are equally dead, whether they're Islamic or Roman Catholic or liberal Protestant. Accordingly, you should be arguing that unbelief will overtake the truth in sheer numbers, etc. However, the issue is not numbers per se, but percentages. Isn't Christianity (i.e. numbers of professing evangelicals) growing at a faster rate than unbelief?

In reply to:
Roman Catholicism was Christianities biggest enemy for an entire age and Islam is our threat today and will be for quite some time perhaps.



Perhaps, but so what? Roman Catholicism and Islam are just more specific appellations for unbelief. For some reason you will not address this issue.

In reply to:
Are there more saved people than unsaved alive today ?



Yes, but, again, so what? Again, we are supposed to be talking about saved people divided by total people vs. unsaved people divided by total people as a trend over time. I’ll grant you that the percentage of Christians can grow even substantially year over year as the delta between unbelievers and believers widens significantly since there are more unbelievers in the world than believers. However, eventually won’t the sheer number of Christians overcome the number of unbelievers? Let’s say that both the unbelieving and believing population doubles every year, yet the believing population also in addition to doubling realizes just a slight increase in percentage over the previous year. Although the delta between believers and unbelievers will widen significantly at first, won’t the spread between the two groups become closer together in time and the believing population even overcome the unbelieving population in sheer numbers eventually?

In reply to:

What about a 1000 years ago , or 3000 , or a thousand years from now ?



The trend favors an optimistic view, but as I said, we should not base our eschatological outlook upon such things as trends. I only labor the point because your initial remark, and all subsequent remarks, suggests that the trend is contrary to an optimistic view of the kingdom.

In reply to:
Each passing day , I believe that more people reject Christ than accept Him .



I wonder whether you are trying to say that Christians are breeding non-Christians at a faster rate than new converts are being made. Whatever you are saying, the gospel was only rediscovered in all its glory just 450 years ago. Look what has happened since time!

In His Service,

Ron


#8680 Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:01 AM
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I just hope he revises the part about the Trinity that was found wanting in his systematic !


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Joe,

?

Ron

#8682 Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:24 PM
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Re-read what he has to say about the Trinity.....


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#8683 Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:37 PM
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Ron you said "is it not true that if Christ died for every person born from this moment on, the middle east will come to Christ in mass rather soon ?" [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/dizzy.gif" alt="dizzy" title="dizzy[/img]<br><br>The heart and the world is the backdrop for irresistible grace. <br><br>All unconverted are of course equally dead but Islam hinders the Gospel - as God has, for His reasons, intended. An unconverted Muslim is a threat to the "visible" Church, ie, you and me, now in the flesh. The false prophet is a different kind of adversary than anti-christian Rome. It does not set out to deceive the elect as Rome does. It does not hide its hatred for Christ and His people and contempt for other non-muslims. Pagan unbelief offers little threat to the "visible" Church.<br><br>I fear you belittle your foes of Roman Catholicism and Islam. I would strongly advise you to study the ethos of these lethal weapons from Satans armory before you dismiss them as "More specific appellations for unbelief"<br><br>Praise God for the last 450 years and beyond ! And Praise God for the next 450 years which are going to get a lot rougher, if He permits them to happen of course.<br><br>How much faith will there be on earth when Christ returns ? [Luke 18:1-8 KJV] I don't know do you ?<br><br>

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Marie,

Below are some excerps from Grant's Osborne's commentary regarding numbers in Revelation. Osborne writes,

...Let us consider the meaning of numbers in the book. There are four major numbers from which the vast majority of numbers derive - 4,7,10,12. While some (Seiss, [John] Walvoord, [Robert]Thomas) tend to consider them literally, they are forced to some creative interpretations, for example, regarding the 144,000 who are sealed in [Rev] 7:4-8. Walvoord believes this means that the 12,000 sealed in each tribe are those selected to be God's special witnesses through the tribulation period. But it seems more likely that he numbers in the book are meant symbolically, as was common in ancient apocalypses. Each of the number tends to signify wholeness or completeness throughout scripture, as in the four corners of the earth or the four winds, the use of seven throughout Scripture, or the twelve tribes and twelve apostles . Bauckham has done an extensive study of the language of the book and has shown how often terms and ideas occur four times ( four corners [Rev 7:1;20:8], four winds [7:1]...or seven times (The seven spirits; sevenfold doxologies; seven seals, trumpets, and bowls; seven beautitudes...As Bauckham concludes, all these cannot merely be coincidental...We cannot insist on a literal meaning for the three and half years of the tribulation period or the thousand years of the millenium. They could be literal, but the numbers function symbolic in the book and probably signify a lengthy period of time that is under God's control...Multiples of tens were commonly used in Jewish writings symbolically, and it is likely that this[1000 years] refers to an indefiinite but perfect period of time...a symbol of completeness in the book.

(It must be noted that Osborne is historic Premil and an arminian. I would disagree with both, but I found these section(s) to well stated. G. K. Beale has an extensive treatment; though it would take a long time to type it all up. In any case, Venema's article should be sufficient as I stated in the previous post. I hope no one beats me up for quoting an arminian.[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img])

As far has the preterist approach that you asked about, Osborne writes,
"This approach argues that the details of the book relate to the present situation in which John lived rather than to a future period [most or all details are specific to that period of time, depending on full or partial preterism]. Thus the symbols refer to events in the first-century world as experienced by the original readers, and John is telling them how God would deliver them from their oppressors. There are three basic approaches to the book from within this school of thought...[one of the] option[s] is to take the book as written before A.D. 70 and phrophesysing the fall of Jerusalem as god's judgment upon apostate Israel for rejecting the Messiah and persecuting the church (So Gentry, Chilton). The beast is Rome, the kings from the east are the Roman generals who brought the Romans army from the eastern boundary of the empire to destroy Jerusalem, and Armageddon is the siege of Jerusalem itself...This third approach is least viable...because it limits the universal language of the book( all "peoples, languages, tribes, and nations") to the Jewish people." [Note in some, the chapters 19-22 refer to future, while others say all is fullfilled. As to specific details of the partial-preterist view in Revelation, David Chilton's "vengeance of days" should be sufficient. All comments in brackets are mine]

in Christ,
Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
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