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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]...the late dating for Revelation is compelling.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/weep.gif" alt="weep" title="weep[/img]<br><br>Ron<br>

#8656 Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:49 AM
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I did enjoy Kiks book , but the main problem I have with post-mil is their hope for better times prior to our Lords return.<br><br>Since the Fall , to my mind at least, each generation is more depraved than the last. In other words , we are still falling and although the Elect will always be called , there are far more Reprobates around with each coming generation .<br><br>Biblical Christianity (Calvinism) appears to be in regression these last couple of Centuries - in the Western world at least . Perhaps Russia and China will be the new champions of Calvinism a couple of thousand years hence ?<br><br>I hoped The Lord Jesus Christ would return yesterday and put everyone where we belong.<br>No matter , perhaps He will come today.<br><br>Rev 22:20,21kjv<br>

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The Earthly Messianic Kingdom (Millenium) is taught in the Apocrypha ( Enoch, Baruch,2 Edras) but not of a fixed 1000 year duration.<br><br>Revelation 20 is spiritual and figurative , including the 1000 years. See ; Deut 1:11, 7:9, 32:30 , Psalm 90:4, 91:7, 105:8, Eccl 6:6, Isa 30:17, 60:22 , 2 Peter 3:8. (kjv)<br><br>Hitlers third reich was going to last a 1000 years - by this , Hitler meant forever . Fortunately , it lasted only 12 years !<br><br>I personally believe the Beast to be Rome and the False prophet to be Islam and we are living in the Tribulation today.

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Marie, <br><br>I will let others answer these questions as I need to start getting ready for work soon. You may want to get William Hendriksen's book, More Than Conquerors - An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation . I'm pretty sure he is a-mill and he does a verse-by-verse commentary in the book. (I have the book, but have not read it - just browsed thus far)


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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I too have this book but like you , I have only browsed. Tis one of Pilgrims favourite books on Revelation I believe.<br><br>For the Islam issue , I have : Islam in Revelation: An Historic look at Protestant Eschatological thought on the rise and fall of Islam by EB Elliot (1862), Alexander M'Leod (1814), David Steel (1870), George Faber (1811) and Thomas Newton (1817). It is published by Still Waters Revival Books and each chapter can be viewed (I think !) at:<br><br>http://www.swrb.com/catalog/E.htm<br><br>http://www.swrb.com/catalog/M.htm<br><br>http://www.swrb.com/catalog/S.htm<br><br>http://www.swrb.com/catalog/F.htm<br><br>http://www.swrb.com/catalog/N.htm

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It helps me to think of the events of 70 A.D. as a part of Christ's first coming rather than some kind of "in between judgement-coming" that isn't really a "second coming." Think of it as the close of His first advent instead. I look at it that way because the signs (charismaton) persisted for that single 40-year period between the ascension and the destruction of the Temple, and because Jesus specifically said that those events would happen to that generation which had rejected Him and upon which God placed the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from Abel to Zechariah (Mt 23:35). After the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled (and the covenant signs - charismaton - of the close of the Old Covenant and commencement of the new) stopped, the "fist advent" of Christ was complete.<br><br>In His Olivent discourse the Lord referred to Daniel's prophecy, "the abomination of desolation (Mt 24:15)" standing in the holy place. Daniel's prophecy refers to the invasion of Solomon's Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, who stood in the Temple and declared himself divine. Yet even though Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled long before Christ was born, Christ refers to another fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy yet future to His audience - the events of 70 A.D. which were a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanes' blasphemy.<br><br>Most "partial" preterists (and I prefer to use the term orthodox preterists because the other term was coined to make us OPs appear to believe only part of what the Bible teaches) believe that there is yet a future fulfilment of the very same prophecies. <br><br>It helps me put it all in perspective to think of the first fulfilment of Matt 23-24 as part of the Lord's first advent.<br><br>-Robin<br>

#8661 Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:33 AM
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Oops! I meant to say early! I should stop posting right before bed. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy[/img]<br><br><br>~Jason<br>

#8662 Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:54 AM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I did enjoy Kiks book , but the main problem I have with post-mil is their hope for better times prior to our Lords return.<br><br>Since the Fall , to my mind at least, each generation is more depraved than the last. In other words , we are still falling and although the Elect will always be called , there are far more Reprobates around with each coming generation.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>We must keep in mind that we do not get our eschatology from the newspapers. Secondly, if we were to chart the progress of the church as a percentage of the entire world population, isn't the church growing faster than the kingdom of darkness as a percentage of the world's population? Consider the Christian population at Pentecost, when three thousand were baptized. Then consider the same population relative the kingdom of darkness prior to the Reformation. Now do so today. Finally, how the world appears is not the issue. After all, if Jesus died for every person that is born from this moment on, then the next generation will be Christian and God will ordain that they hear the gospel and come to Christ. In other words, salvation is of God. <br><br>Obviously, this was not intended to be an argument for an optimistic view of the kingdom. Rather, my comments are intended to simply point out that the trend supports a "Christianized" world more than status quo, and that the progress of the church is dependent solely upon the will of God (even as it pertains to the question of for whom Christ died). Having said all that, I do know that it is our hearts' desire that the Kingdom prosper in this world beyond measure. "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."<br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>Ron<br><br><br>

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Oops! I meant to say early! I should stop posting right before bed. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy[/img]<br><br>~Jason</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Really? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/joy.gif" alt="joy" title="joy[/img] I thought all that studying you were doing was making your head soft![img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>Ron<br><br>

#8664 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:10 AM
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Yeah, I do. It's funny, you read Reymond on the subject and he gives a marvelous list of the internal and external evidence for an early date and then he gets to the end and essentially says, "but, I do not hold to it because there is this one other reference giving a late date from (Eusebius?)". I don't remember the exact church father, I lent out my Reymond book and have not received it back yet. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/sad.gif" alt="sad" title="sad[/img]. In any event, I remember laughing out loud when I read it because I just couldn't believe that was his conclusion.<br><br>~Jason<br>

#8665 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:12 AM
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Perhaps in the developing world Christianity is growing but not so in the developed world.<br><br>England for example, used to be known as a "christian" country throughout the world. Now its post-christian - the same thing is happenning in the USA too.<br><br>Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today I believe . 15 churches a week in the UK are closing down whereas mosques are still being built here.<br><br>This is however Gods Will being done and therefore I am quite content .

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Jason,<br><br>I didn't laugh when I read his conclusion -- I was dismayed. As you say, Reymond simply presented the facts; then facts presented the case for an early date and then his conclusion (or should I say concluding assertion) was "I am inclined toward a late date because I do not believe that the judgments of the book can be restricted in their applications primarily, if not exclusively, to Israel." In other words, he argued well for an early date only to conclude with a late dating. Even if the late dating is the correct one, Reymond certainly never argued for it.<br><br>Ron<br>

#8667 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:25 AM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today I believe.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Howard,<br><br>This is completely irrelevant. When someone converts to Islam, an unbeliever simply gets relabeled. If all the pagans in the world became Muslim, how would this mean that the kingdom of darkness is growing by percentage? All it would mean is that they are getting more organized under the same banner.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron<br>

#8668 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:41 AM
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Good point Ron , but pagans are no threat to to christians .<br><br>(I do believe I've taken this thread off topic.)

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Dear Marie:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Also, what eschatological view did Spurgeon ascribe to?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Though some dispute it, my reading indicates that Spurgeon was Historical Premillenial, as was the Apostle John, according to Polycarp, his student and Irenaus, Polycarp's student.<br><br>By the way, I know that last statement is not the popular view here, and I have no intention of debating it, but rather offer it as my own understanding to your question.<br><br>In Him,<br><br>Gerry<br>

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