The Highway
Posted By: Tom For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu May 15, 2008 6:37 PM
I have been asked by someone to try to explain what John Owen was getting at in the following.


Quote
FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

a. That if the lst be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins."

Dr John Owen, Chaplain to Oliver Cromwell and Vice Chancellor of Oxford University.

Particularly the first point: To quote this person:
Quote
If all sins have been paid for, why does that imply that no one is saved?

Although I understand what Owen is saying, I am having trouble writing down in coherent words an explanation that is understandable. I thought perhaps if I posted this here I might get a response that would help me in this regard.

Thank you in advance.
Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu May 15, 2008 7:54 PM
Tom,

Your friend's question is due to a typo in Owen's statement quoted in your post:


a. That if the lst be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.


The word is NOT ]lst (first) but rather last, which refers to: "3. Some of the sins of all men."

You can see a correct version here: For Whom Did Christ Die?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu May 15, 2008 9:25 PM
Pilgrim

Thank you for that, it just goes to show you that one needs to checks their sources, even when their sources are Reformed. I don't know why I didn't notice this before. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Tom
Posted By: Paul_S Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri May 16, 2008 3:44 AM
Dear Tom,

In your defense I will say that I have stumbled over this same quote in a similar way. Since Owen's time we have become accustomed to have "matching lists"--like his 1,2,3 and a,b,c--always go in the same order, but he does what is now unusual, having a tied to 3, b to 2, and c to 1. If you're only skimming* it's easy to make that mistake, and I would guess that's what threw off the transcriber of your source.

But then who can just skim Owen? I needed to read many pages of The Death of Death in the Death of Christ 2 or 3 times "before the lights went on"! That shouldn't discourage anyone from reading him, however; you work up a sweat digging for gold or diamonds, and that's what you get if you take it slow. Certainly the "For Whom Did Christ Die" argument is well worth taking the time to think through, both for strengthening one's own faith and to be able to instruct the immature.
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri May 16, 2008 6:49 AM
Thanks Paul

I have read JI Packer's Introduction to the 1959 reprinting of John Owen's The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.
I have to say that this is probably my favorite article, I am sure glad that Packer took the time to write this great piece of work.
I have never read Owen's book, but it is one of the books I hope one day to attempt to read.
I say attempt because like you mentioned he is not easy to read.

Tom
Posted By: William Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat May 17, 2008 1:51 AM
But then who can just skim Owen?


No we can't skim, here is a quote by Owen that I just can not believe. Could someone check me out on this?

Quote
The works of John Owen - Vol 10
The Death of Christ
Chapter 4- Farther of the Matter of the Satisfaction Of Christ
Pages 270-271

First, The foundation of this whole assertion seems to me to be false and erroneous, namely, that God could not have mercy on mankind unless satisfaction were made by his Son. It is true, indeed, supposing the decree, purpose, and constitution of God that so it should be, that so he would manifest his glory, by the way of vindicative justice, it was impossible that it should otherwise be; for with the Lord there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning,James 1:17; 1 Samuel 15:29: but to assert positively, that absolutely and antecedently to his constitution he could not have done it, is to me an unwritten tradition, the Scripture affirming no such thing, neither can it be gathered from thence in any good consequence. If any one shall deny this, we will try what the Lord will enable us to say unto it, and in the meantime rest contented in that of Augustine: Though other ways of saving us were not wanting to his infinite wisdom, yet certainly the way which he did proceed in was the most convenient, because we find he proceeded therein.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon May 19, 2008 2:40 PM
William,

What exactly is it that you think Owen is saying to which you find so amazingly unbelievable? I can't seem to find something extraordinarily off base in what he wrote in that quote, so could you please point out your objection? confused

In His grace,
Posted By: MarieP Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon May 19, 2008 11:00 PM
Well, my friend Carla Rolfe pointed out in a blog entry just today that, when God made vegetation, He created plants that would be used to heal diseases and ease pain. And that was BEFORE the Fall!
Posted By: William Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon May 19, 2008 11:31 PM
Pilgrim and Mary P.

Sorry, I thought Owen was saying that God could save His elect without the cross.


.
Posted By: Paul_S Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue May 20, 2008 3:53 AM
Dear William,

I think I remember being arrested by the same statement when I first read the book years ago, but it doesn't bother me at all now. Here's why.

I will agree with you that Owen's primary meaning seems to be as you said, that it would have been possible for God to save His elect without displaying His vindicative justice at the cross. But he is stating this to refute a flaw in a premise of the Arminians, not for idle philosophical speculation. They argued, in effect, that SINCE God was BOUND to save mankind in ONLY the particular way that He actually did--requiring His justice to be satisfied with the blood of His Son on the cross--THEREFORE the satisfaction of His justice in the death of Christ was the ONLY means available for God to come close to His HOPED-FOR DESIRE that He could really be reconciled to all of mankind. According to this argument, God has done ALL HE COULD DO to make it possible for His justice to be satisfied, but the individual sinner still gets to make the final CHOICE as to whether the satisfaction is actually effectual in his case.

So Owen--bless him, he was like Darth Vader against the Arminians--rather than entering into the argument, grabs the bull by the horns and denies the premise, namely the assertion that God was bound to display mercy in a particular way, because that assertion was so central to the argument. Note that he is extremely careful to qualify himself in his second sentence, saying in effect that of course God bound Himself to accomplish what actually happened; if he had argued otherwise he would have been wrong and we would be right to say so. But he does not say that; rather he is talking, as the Arminians were, about whether God was bound to show mercy in a particular way BEFORE the covenant of redemption was inaugurated. And he is quite correct to say that there is no scriptural basis for making the Arminian assertion.

Owen does not speculate as to the other possibilities, there being no need for his counter-assertion, but examples could perhaps include some alteration of how God treated Satan, Eve and Adam in Genesis 3. What if God slew an unrepentant Adam on the spot, created a second Adam who would not fall, and produced through Eve a new humanity to whom neither Eve's nor Adam's sin was imputed? Justice would be satisfied and mercy would have been displayed, both without need for the Incarnation. Again, these speculations are unfruitful because we must deal only with what we know what He DID CHOOSE to do; Owen's point was simply that prior to the decrees and covenants, there is no record of God being EXTERNALLY BOUND to a redemptive plan in which He was SELF-LIMITED in respect to the execution and application of His justice and mercy, as the Arminians were falsely arguing.

How's the singing coming along? On warm nights when a gentle breeze wafts down along the Hudson, I will be keeping my ears cocked for a faint echo of your increasingly-resonant voice!
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue May 20, 2008 8:32 PM
Pilgrim

Just so you know, I informed the person who wrongly copied down that Owen quote and he was thankful that I did.
Again thank you for helping me out in this matter.

Tom
Posted By: William Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed May 21, 2008 12:01 AM
Thank you Paul for the help with Owen. I'll leave the philosophical arguments i.e. the sufficiency of the atonement, Sub-Lapsarian, Supra-Lapsarian, the impeccability of Christ for the big guys.


[color:"0000FF"]Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John 10:35 . . . and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psalm 22, Galations 3:13, 1 Peter 1:20,[/color]


I don't want to ruin Tom's thread but your singing lesson How to sing has given me something to think about when I sing, only (don't laugh) I cannot hear myself when others are singing.



Quote
How's the singing coming along? On warm nights when a gentle breeze wafts down along the Hudson, I will be keeping my ears cocked for a faint echo of your increasingly-resonant voice!


William
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:44 PM
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future. No-one can claim impunity against God.

However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ. So justice is perfectly served.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:51 PM
Quote
xyz said:
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future. No-one can claim impunity against God.

However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ. So justice is perfectly served.
Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board. [Linked Image]

From your response I am curious to know how you deal with John Owen's statement here: For Whom Did Christ Die?. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:56 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future. No-one can claim impunity against God.

However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ. So justice is perfectly served.
Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board. [Linked Image]

From your response I am curious to know how you deal with John Owen's statement here: For Whom Did Christ Die?. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I think a grin is the right response to Mr Owen's offering.

And thank you for the welcome.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:54 PM
Quote
xyz said:
I think a grin is the right response to Mr Owen's offering.

And thank you for the welcome.
There's no charge for the welcome. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now, as to a <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> being the right response to John Owen's statement concerning Christ's atonement, I confess I don't grasp what you mean by that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" /> Would you be so kind as to elucidate?

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:21 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:
I think a grin is the right response to Mr Owen's offering.

And thank you for the welcome.
There's no charge for the welcome. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now, as to a <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> being the right response to John Owen's statement concerning Christ's atonement, I confess I don't grasp what you mean by that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" /> Would you be so kind as to elucidate?
After you (or someone) has dealt with the content of my post, I don't think it will be necessary.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:28 PM
Quote
xyz said:
After you (or someone) has dealt with the content of my post, I don't think it will be necessary.
Unfortunately, I am but a simple and elderly man who does find it necessary that you explain what you meant. I would truly like to understand you but at this point I cannot. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,
Posted By: jaf Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:33 PM
xyz,

I've never read anything by Owen that brought a grin to my face. He's very sober. Your post isn't as clear as you may think. Please go into more detail. It's hard to get the point or point's you're trying to make. jaf
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:49 PM
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jaf said:
Your post isn't as clear as you may think.
Why is that?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:04 PM
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xyz said:
Quote
jaf said:
Your post isn't as clear as you may think.
Why is that?
I can think of a few reasons, although there may be more:

1. The reader(s) are not familiar with your writing style, or
2. The writer has difficulty expressing his/her thoughts cogently in regard to the readership, or
3. The writer is being evasive for some reason.

Whatever the reason what IS clear is that some of us here are having a difficult time understanding your response(s), particularly your statement that a "smile" icon is sufficient an answer to what you think of John Owen's For Whom Did Christ Die?.

In His grace,
Posted By: chestnutmare Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:13 PM
Thank you. I have read this post a few times and cannot understand what is meant. I was afraid it was just me. So…if it wouldn't be too much trouble, please explain.

Patrice
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:23 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:
Quote
jaf said:
Your post isn't as clear as you may think.
Why is that?
I can think of a few reasons, although there may be more:

1. The reader(s) are not familiar with your writing style, or
2. The writer has difficulty expressing his/her thoughts cogently in regard to the readership, or
3. The writer is being evasive for some reason.
4. The two readers are insufficiently educated theologically to understand the post. One of them has, in effect admitted this. They are both evidently competent with ordinary English, so dictionary.com or similar is their first resort, if they genuinely have comprehension difficulties.

5. The readers are being evasive for some reason. This is a standard reaction when people are completely defeated, and is by no means unusual on the 'net. It is almost always the reason when people simply declare incomprehension without reason. Genuine incomprehension almost invariably asks for a particular word or phrase to be explained, especially when a reason is requested.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:37 PM
Quote
xyz said:
4. The two readers are insufficiently educated theologically to understand the post. One of them has, in effect admitted this. They are both evidently competent with ordinary English, so dictionary.com or similar is their first resort, if they genuinely have comprehension difficulties.
Certainly, this is a real possibility. However, I can say without hesitation that this reason (insufficient theological education) does not apply to any of the three individuals who have asked for clarification.

Quote
xyz further comments:
5. The readers are being evasive for some reason. This is a standard reaction when people are completely defeated, and is by no means unusual on the 'net. It is almost always the reason when people simply declare incomprehension without reason. Genuine incomprehension almost invariably asks for a particular word or phrase to be explained, especially when a reason is requested.
This too is a real possibility, although once again, it incontrovertibly does not apply here since the request for clarification by all has been genuine. Contrariwise, your responses have been anything but helpful in answering those queries, the original context which originated the issue being:


Question: From your response I am curious to know how you deal with John Owen's statement here: For Whom Did Christ Die?. (Pilgrim)

Answer: I think a grin is the right response to Mr Owen's offering. (xyz)



PS. You have a PM (Private Message) waiting a response also. Click the flashing envelope icon on the upper right-hand side of the page under your username. grin

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:42 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz further comments:
5. The readers are being evasive for some reason. This is a standard reaction when people are completely defeated, and is by no means unusual on the 'net. It is almost always the reason when people simply declare incomprehension without reason. Genuine incomprehension almost invariably asks for a particular word or phrase to be explained, especially when a reason is requested.
This too is a real possibility, although once again, it incontrovertibly does not apply here since the request for clarification by all has been genuine. [/quote]
How can the reader know that?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:59 PM
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xyz said:

Quote
xyz further comments:
5. The readers are being evasive for some reason. This is a standard reaction when people are completely defeated, and is by no means unusual on the 'net. It is almost always the reason when people simply declare incomprehension without reason. Genuine incomprehension almost invariably asks for a particular word or phrase to be explained, especially when a reason is requested.
Quote
Pilgrim responds:
This too is a real possibility, although once again, it incontrovertibly does not apply here since the request for clarification by all has been genuine.
How can the reader know that?
[Linked Image] Well, since I am one of those readers I am quite certain that my query is genuine. [Linked Image]

Seriously, I really don't have time for silly games. [Linked Image] If you don't care to clarify your response that is acceptable. But a word to that point would be appreciated.

In His grace,
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:04 PM
xyz

I have read your posts, but I am at a loss to understand what you are getting at.
I had thought that it might be just me, but judging from others responses, I don't believe that is the case.

So unless you have come to this thread/board to cause trouble, I would ask that you make yourself clear.
If you are here to cause trouble, I doubt very much your stay here will be a long one.

Tom
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:30 PM
Quote
Tom said:
xyz

I have read your posts, but I am at a loss to understand what you are getting at.
I had thought that it might be just me, but judging from others responses, I don't believe that is the case.

So unless you have come to this thread/board to cause trouble
But you said that you didn't know what I was getting at.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:00 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:

Quote
xyz further comments:
5. The readers are being evasive for some reason. This is a standard reaction when people are completely defeated, and is by no means unusual on the 'net. It is almost always the reason when people simply declare incomprehension without reason. Genuine incomprehension almost invariably asks for a particular word or phrase to be explained, especially when a reason is requested.
Quote
Pilgrim responds:
This too is a real possibility, although once again, it incontrovertibly does not apply here since the request for clarification by all has been genuine.
How can the reader know that?
[Linked Image] Well, since I am one of those readers I am quite certain that my query is genuine. [Linked Image]

Seriously, I really don't have time for silly games.
This seems to me to be precisely one of those. But we shall see.

'Christ died for all sins, past, present, future.'

That much is clear, surely?

'No-one can claim impunity against God.'

That means that no-one can say they sinned against God and got away with it. (If they could, they would be God.)

'However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation'

That means to reject the 'payment' made on one's behalf, like refusing a governor's pardon because you reckon you had not committed a crime.

'is to put oneself under law,'

As Paul wrote.

'and all under law are condemned, except Christ.'

As Paul wrote.

'So justice is perfectly served.'

As should now be clear, it it wasn't before.

Now, deal with all of that, and if you can then with reason claim that Owen is relevant, fair enough.
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:15 PM
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xyz said:
Quote
Tom said:
xyz

I have read your posts, but I am at a loss to understand what you are getting at.
I had thought that it might be just me, but judging from others responses, I don't believe that is the case.

So unless you have come to this thread/board to cause trouble
But you said that you didn't know what I was getting at.

dizzy ..... igiveup
Posted By: Peter Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:59 PM
Quote
This seems to me to be precisely one of those. But we shall see.

'Christ died for all sins, past, present, future.'

That much is clear, surely?

All sins of whom? The elect? The general populace of Israel at the time of the crucifixion? The entire world? Only those of the Roman Catholic Church?

Let me make this clear: whom is the objective case of who as such it denotes a particular person or group of persons. To say: 'Christ died for all sins, past, present, future.' doesn't answer the question of "whom" did Christ die for ergo your response makes no sense in light of the original question.

The rest of your response is just incoherent babble in which you still do not deal with the question of whom. Until that question is answered you are just taking up data bits on this discussion board.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:44 AM
Quote
xyz said:
'Christ died for all sins, past, present, future.'

That much is clear, surely?

'No-one can claim impunity against God.'

That means that no-one can say they sinned against God and got away with it. (If they could, they would be God.)

'However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation'

That means to reject the 'payment' made on one's behalf, like refusing a governor's pardon because you reckon you had not committed a crime.

Now, deal with all of that, and if you can then with reason claim that Owen is relevant, fair enough.
xyz,

Bonerges has captured the essence of your obfuscation, i.e., the issue of "whom"; the object of Christ's atoning work. Thus, I won't spend time iterating the obvious. However, IF I have grasped the remainder of the quote above, it would appear that you are saying that there are those who will not escape condemnation because they "reject substitutionary propitiation". scratchchin

As one who apparently is less educated in theological matters than you, I have some further problems comprehending the remainder of what you wrote for the following:

At face value, it seems you hold that if one simply assents to "substitutionary propitiation"; i.e., one aspect of Christ's vicarious substitutionary atonement, viz. propitiation, then that person will avoid condemnation.

a. Assensus which was made popular by Robert Sandeman (see here: Andrew Fuller and the Sandemanians), aka: "Easy Believism" has no saving value whatsoever. The demons believe in the Trinity, Christ's substitutionary work, etc., yet are destined to eternal damnation.

b. Since Christ's atonement was substitutionary, then whatever it did accomplish it was rendered complete "in behalf of" those who were the intended recipients.

c. In regard to propitiation (Gk: hilaskomai), which means to appease the wrath of one who is offended by the removal of that which has caused the offense. Since Christ IS the propitiation for sin, then God's anger is effectively and completely removed by the expiation of sin; the offense. Thus as Owen inarguably shows, if Christ's death was for all, i.e., every man, woman and child from Adam to the very last of the human race, then all MUST be saved. If one should argue, as you appear to be doing, that one is barred from salvation due to the rejection of one truth which you call "substitutionary propitiation", in itself a sin, and if Christ's death atoned for ALL sin, then why should the rejection of that one particular doctrine; a sin, prevent that one from being saved since Christ died for ALL sins, past, present and future? Indeed, Owen's thesis is more than relevant and indisputable.

d. ALL are under judgment by nature and thus there is no need to reject anything to be damned. For, being in Adam one is under the wrath of God and subject to damnation automatically. Any actual sins committed only add to that damnation. This is known as the doctrine of "Original Sin"; all have Adam's guilt imputed to their account AND inherit a corrupt nature which is predisposed to sin and sin only. Again, an unborn child is destined to eternal hell just because it is human unless God takes pity on that child and by the Spirit unites it to Christ by grace.

e. If a governor pardoned a criminal then it wouldn't matter if the individual refused to accept it and chose to remain in jail. The fact is, legally, the pardon would still be in effect since it is a legal pronouncement by the only one who has the authority and power to exact the pardon. The acceptance of the pardon does NOT make it effectual.

For a brief but more comprehensive summary of Christ's vicarious substitutionary atonement see here: The Atonement, by Prof. John Murray.

In regard to the biblical doctrine of "Original Sin" see here: The Sinfulness of Original Sin, by W.G.T. Shedd.

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:28 AM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:
'Christ died for all sins, past, present, future.'

That much is clear, surely?

'No-one can claim impunity against God.'

That means that no-one can say they sinned against God and got away with it. (If they could, they would be God.)

'However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation'

That means to reject the 'payment' made on one's behalf, like refusing a governor's pardon because you reckon you had not committed a crime.
b. Since Christ's atonement was substitutionary, then whatever it did accomplish it was rendered complete "in behalf of" those who were the intended recipients.

c. In regard to propitiation (Gk: hilaskomai), which means to appease the wrath of one who is offended by the removal of that which has caused the offense. Since Christ IS the propitiation for sin, then God's anger is effectively and completely removed by the expiation of sin; the offense. Thus as Owen inarguably shows, if Christ's death was for all, i.e., every man, woman and child from Adam to the very last of the human race, then all MUST be saved. If one should argue, as you appear to be doing, that one is barred from salvation due to the rejection of one truth which you call "substitutionary propitiation", in itself a sin, and if Christ's death atoned for ALL sin, then why should the rejection of that one particular doctrine; a sin
But is it a sin? Does one not have the right to decide upon the nature of one's own conduct? We are gods. We have the sovereign right to determine our own fates. We have the right to say that we are sinless, and have no need of propitiation, or even that there is no such thing as sin. But if we do that, we have to prove it, and it is only then, when we come to judgment, that our denial becomes folly. And because it is a folly, and a lie, it can be accounted a sin- the unforgivable sin, as it will turn out.

So when we hear that all of our sins have been forgiven, we have the choice of accepting that, or rejecting it. We do not hear that all but one of our sins are forgiven, because that would be no better than hearing that none are forgiven.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:32 AM
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xyz said:
But is it a sin? Does one not have the right to decide upon the nature of one's own conduct? We are gods. We have the sovereign right to determine our own fates. We have the right to say that we are sinless, and have no need of propitiation, or even that there is no such thing as sin. But if we do that, we have to prove it, and it is only then, when we come to judgment, that our denial becomes folly. And because it is a folly, and a lie, it can be accounted a sin- the unforgivable sin, as it will turn out.

So when we hear that all of our sins have been forgiven, we have the choice of accepting that, or rejecting it. We do not hear that all but one of our sins are forgiven, because that would be no better than hearing that none are forgiven.
Methinks you have missed the point entirely and thus I can now understand how you can dismiss Owen's premise with a smile grin

Christ's atoning work is first and foremost OBJECTIVE and FORENSIC. What He accomplished was to accomplish justice, i.e., to appease God by taking upon Himself the punishment due to the breaking of God's holy law; aka: passive. Additionally, He also satisfied the necessity of actually keeping that holy law of God perfectly; aka: active. Thus, in His life, death and resurrection the FULL demands of God and the law were met. Secondly, since His atonement was vicarious and substitutionary, ALL those for whom He died share in that completed work (sacrifice, ransom, reconciliation and propitiation). ALL are freed from condemnation since justice was met. It matters not whether a person accepts or rejects what was done to make that work effectual. Thirdly, the salvation secured by Christ not only accomplished the redemption necessary but also the MEANS to that end. Thus, ALL for whom Christ died are irresistibly and infallibly brought to repentance and faith in Christ through and by the sovereign working of the Holy Spirit. And this same Spirit dwells within each and everyone for whom Christ died working sanctification within them all their earthly days. Not one for whom Christ died will nor can be lost. His people (sheep), ALL of them, hear his voice and follow Him. ALL those for whom He died will be raised up on the last day.

Thus, either one believes that Christ's death was effectual and 100% sufficient to accomplish salvation, which is the biblical teaching OR one rejects that truth and embraces any one of an inestimable choice of errors concerning the atonement, e.g., it made salvation possible IF a person does this, believes that, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

Perhaps you need to reconsider Owen's premise and understand it rightly? [Linked Image]

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:03 PM
Quote
Pilgrim said:
ALL are freed from condemnation since justice was met. It matters not whether a person accepts or rejects what was done to make that work effectual.
So there will be unrepentant sinners in heaven.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:37 PM
Quote
xyz said:

Quote
Pilgrim said:
ALL are freed from condemnation since justice was met. It matters not whether a person accepts or rejects what was done to make that work effectual.
So there will be unrepentant sinners in heaven.
Sorry, but you have misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do; save those whom the Father had given to Christ, i.e., all those whom the Father elected to salvation in Christ. (Jh 6:39; 17:9, 11, 24; Eph 1:4-6) And as I also stated, the redemption accomplished includes that it will be applied to all those for whom it was intended; the sheep, elect, chosen, predestinated, foreknown, loved, etc. The salvation of Christ's substitutionary atonement includes the MEANS by which the recipients are delivered by it; regeneration by the Spirit, the gift of repentance & faith and perseverance to the end. The atonement of the Lord Christ is complete; it actually accomplishes that which it intended, to save a sure number of sinners whom were eternally chosen by God out of the fallen race of mankind.

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:49 PM
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:

Quote
Pilgrim said:
ALL are freed from condemnation since justice was met. It matters not whether a person accepts or rejects what was done to make that work effectual.
So there will be unrepentant sinners in heaven.
Sorry, but you have misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do
There is no disagreement about that.
Posted By: hisalone Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:53 PM
I read the posts and some thoughts came to mind. Is the question talking about whether Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all sins and all men? Or are we just talking about the application of the atonement? I believe that Christ's death was sufficient for all men, but only those to whom it is applied were going to be the beneficiaries of it.

The word "for" in the question can be misapplied or misunderstood. Christ's death is available "for" all who call upon Him, so in that sense He did die for "all" men. It seems to me that God would be considered as not being truthful if salvation were not available to all when the Word says "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Rom. 10:13.

For whom did Christ die? For God so loved the world that He gave.... It doesn't say for God so loved the elect. Now we go back to the post about "Who Does God Love" I believe as posted in that thread that God's love is extensive, not limited to just the elect as the majority seem to believe. I really would like more time to be able to write more on that subject, but my time has of late been consumed in other things, however, silence should not be thought of conceding the point.

I don't disagree with what has been posted, just that the question isn't entirely clear to me as to what is meant by the question for whom did Christ die? is it asking for the specific application or the general sufficiency of His sacrifice?
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:46 PM
Quote
I read the posts and some thoughts came to mind. Is the question talking about whether Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all sins and all men? Or are we just talking about the application of the atonement? I believe that Christ's death was sufficient for all men, but only those to whom it is applied were going to be the beneficiaries of it.

I think you are exactly right!

Quote
The word "for" in the question can be misapplied or misunderstood. Christ's death is available "for" all who call upon Him, so in that sense He did die for "all" men. It seems to me that God would be considered as not being truthful if salvation were not available to all when the Word says "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Rom. 10:13.

Again, I think you are exactly right. The only thing I would add is that, of course ,only those who are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit will in fact "call on the name of the Lord."

Quote
For whom did Christ die? For God so loved the world that He gave.... It doesn't say for God so loved the elect. Now we go back to the post about "Who Does God Love" I believe as posted in that thread that God's love is extensive, not limited to just the elect as the majority seem to believe. I really would like more time to be able to write more on that subject, but my time has of late been consumed in other things, however, silence should not be thought of conceding the point.

I have not read any of the posts on "Who Does God Love" and like you, my time for this type of thing is limited, so I probably won't unless you bait me with a juicy quote from one of the posts. Do the majority here really say that God only loves the elect? If so that saddens me and I disagree with them. I suppose no one here has had to ever punish or hold accountable someone they love.
Posted By: MarieP Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:52 PM
So if Jesus Christ intended to satisfy the wrath of God against all men individually without exception, why aren't all men saved?
Posted By: hisalone Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:01 PM
You need to read the thread, when I mentioned about the majority not believing God loves all, it is more about the definition, agape or benevolence. Majority also meaning the majority of the posts, not everyone on this message board, I can't speak for everyone. It is hard to keep comments in certain parameters, just like programming it is best not to make ambiguous statements, which I do sometimes inadvertently. Everyone seems to agree that God has benevolent love for His creation, so my statement is not clear unless you take the time to read the thread.
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:01 PM
hisalone,

I do not claim to have read all of the posts in their entirety; but, I do think you might benefit from thinking about this in a different way or with different categories. Not that there's anything wrong with the classic distinction between the love of benevolence, the love of beneficence, and the love of complacency; but, when I find myself beating my head against a wall about something for a while I check to see if there's another way to the other side. I would heartily second Marie's recommendation of John MacArthur's excellent and inspiring book The Love of God.

You can also read his sermon series on the same subject:

The Love of God, Part 1

The Love of God, Part 2

The Love of God, Part 3

The Love of God, Part 4

the Love of God, Part 5

The Love of God, Part 6
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:29 PM
Quote
xyz said:

Quote
Pilgrim said:
Sorry, but you have misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do
There is no disagreement about that.
And just to be 100% clear and accurate, my FULL statement was:


My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do; save those whom the Father had given to Christ, i.e., all those whom the Father elected to salvation in Christ. (Jh 6:39; 17:9, 11, 24; Eph 1:4-6)


In short, I qualified what the purpose was in God sending Christ to die for sinners, which was to secure infallibly the salvation of all the elect vs. making salvation possible to all mankind without distinction on the basis of an alleged free-will decision to ask Jesus into their heart, make Him Lord, decide for Christ or any other action on the part of man including believing upon Him. If you are still in agreement, then we have an understanding. If this is not agreeable to you, then we have a disagreement.

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:58 PM
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
xyz said:

Quote
Pilgrim said:
Sorry, but you have misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do
There is no disagreement about that.
And just to be 100% clear and accurate, my FULL statement was:

<blockquote>
My point was that the atonement of Christ does not DEPEND upon anything from man to make it effectual, i.e., the death of Christ accomplished ALL that it intended to do; save those whom the Father had given to Christ, i.e., all those whom the Father elected to salvation in Christ. (Jh 6:39; 17:9, 11, 24; Eph 1:4-6)<br>
</blockquote>
In short, I qualified what the purpose was in God sending Christ to die for sinners, which was to secure infallibly the salvation of all the elect vs. making salvation possible to all mankind without distinction on the basis of an alleged free-will decision to ask Jesus into their heart, make Him Lord, decide for Christ or any other action on the part of man including believing upon Him. If you are still in agreement, then we have an understanding. If this is not agreeable to you, then we have a disagreement. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Very true. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:42 AM
xyz

Just for the sake of clarity when you said:
"Very true."

Does that mean you are in agreement with Pilgrim about what he believes? I.e. you agree with John Owen.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:53 AM
Quote
Tom said:
xyz

Just for the sake of clarity when you said:
"Very true."

Does that mean you are in agreement with Pilgrim about what he believes?
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Posted By: The Monergist Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:21 PM
Please, Please,

Everyone who has not read the Death of Death by John Owen, Buy it (and a highlighter or two) and dedicate a month or three to studying it, Yes it is difficult, it is time consuming (especally if you study it with Bible at side as you should) BUT I assure you that you will be glad you did, even if you just read through it as fast as you can (not that you could) you will be greateful. He has answered every question imaginable about the theology of redemption.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:12 PM
Quote
The Monergist said:
Please, Please,

Everyone who has not read the Death of Death by John Owen, Buy it (and a highlighter or two) and dedicate a month or three to studying it, Yes it is difficult, it is time consuming (especally if you study it with Bible at side as you should) BUT I assure you that you will be glad you did, even if you just read through it as fast as you can (not that you could) you will be greateful. He has answered every question imaginable about the theology of redemption.
As have many others.
Posted By: hisalone Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:13 PM
Pilgrim, I believe that your vs freewill limits the grace of God. The Son's sacrifice provided the perfect means of reconciliation for "all" men. Just because all men do not have the blood applied to the "doorposts" of their hearts doesn't mean it isn't available. It isn't a vs situation. Sufficient grace has been provided, the issue comes down to upon whom does the Spirit apply it. I personally disagree with how Owen looks at the atonement, my view is that it is available to everyone even though it is only the who become beneficiaries of it. Don't limit the grace of God, that isn't who He is. If it were possible for the lost to show faith in Christ without the Spirit, (which they can't) they would be saved.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:59 PM
Quote
hisalone said:
Pilgrim, I believe that your vs freewill limits the grace of God. The Son's sacrifice provided the perfect means of reconciliation for "all" men. Just because all men do not have the blood applied to the "doorposts" of their hearts doesn't mean it isn't available. It isn't a vs situation. Sufficient grace has been provided, the issue comes down to upon whom does the Spirit apply it. I personally disagree with how Owen looks at the atonement, my view is that it is available to everyone even though it is only the who become beneficiaries of it. Don't limit the grace of God, that isn't who He is. If it were possible for the lost to show faith in Christ without the Spirit, (which they can't) they would be saved.
hisalone,

1. I think you are confusing the issue; "for whom did Christ die?" (the efficacy of Christ's death) with "for whom is the grace of God in Christ available?" (free offer of the Gospel).

2. What was God's purpose in sending Christ? Was it to actually secure the salvation a fixed number of sinners (the elect)? Or, was it only to make salvation possible, i.e., it didn't actually secure salvation for anyone?

3. You are certainly entitled to disagree with John Owen's treatise but the fact is NO ONE has to this day ever written nor offered a rebuttal against it. His treatment of the atonement is so thorough and biblically sound, an valid argument against it doesn't exist.

4. Re: limiting the grace of God. This is one of the most common objections launched against the historic doctrine of the atonement. However, both sides limit the atonement. The semi-Pelagian/Arminian view limits the efficacy of it because it fails to actually secure the salvation of anyone in itself. Secondly, it limits the grace of God in that it says that God had no one in particular in mind to save when He sent Christ into the world. Thirdly, it limits the sovereignty of God for theoretically, Christ could have died in vain should no one believe on Him. The Reformed/Calvinist view limits the number of recipients to those whom the Father predestinated to salvation in Christ. Thus the grace of God is exalted for Christ actually accomplished that which the Father intended; "he shall save his people from their sins".

Spurgeon marvelously illustrated the two views with a bridge:

1. The Calvinists have a narrow bridge which reaches the other side.
1. The semi-Pelagians/Arminians have a bridge that is wide but stops half-way.

Perhaps you would appreciate this article: Sufficient for All, by Jim Elliot and/or Limited Atonement, by Loraine Boettner.

In His grace,
Posted By: hisalone Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:16 PM
Pilgrim,
It possibly is a misunderstanding on my part concerning the question at hand. That was why I originally asked what the "for" in the question represented. I have Owen's works on my shelf as well as many other Puritan and reformed books. I have read various authors concerning the atonement. I have not strayed from the Reformed view, other than seeing everything as more extensive. God's love and grace as enveloping all mankind. The application of those things is something entirely separate. I did start reading MacArthur on the love of God, he was basically saying what I was trying to say only I don't like his use of degrees of love. Instead of degrees I see it as applied or not. I'll read Boettner when I get the chance.
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:49 PM
Quote
xyz said:
Quote
Tom said:
xyz

Just for the sake of clarity when you said:
"Very true."

Does that mean you are in agreement with Pilgrim about what he believes?
Perhaps. Perhaps not.

You wouldn’t be into the Emergent Church movement would you?
Trying to figure out what you believe is like trying to nail jello to a wall.
Which means basically your input into this thread is useless.

Tom
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:57 PM
Quote
xyz said:
Quote
The Monergist said:
Please, Please,

Everyone who has not read the Death of Death by John Owen, Buy it (and a highlighter or two) and dedicate a month or three to studying it, Yes it is difficult, it is time consuming (especally if you study it with Bible at side as you should) BUT I assure you that you will be glad you did, even if you just read through it as fast as you can (not that you could) you will be greateful. He has answered every question imaginable about the theology of redemption.
As have many others.

Which means basically that you believe that everything is subjective and that we can never know the truth objectively.

Tom
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:50 PM
Quote
Tom said:
Quote
xyz said:
Quote
The Monergist said:
Please, Please,

Everyone who has not read the Death of Death by John Owen, Buy it (and a highlighter or two) and dedicate a month or three to studying it, Yes it is difficult, it is time consuming (especally if you study it with Bible at side as you should) BUT I assure you that you will be glad you did, even if you just read through it as fast as you can (not that you could) you will be greateful. He has answered every question imaginable about the theology of redemption.
As have many others.

Which means basically that you believe that everything is subjective and that we can never know the truth objectively.

Tom
Civil debate begins, poster, when people make sure that there are no unnecessary personal pronouns in their statements.
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:05 PM
Quote
xyz wrote:

Civil debate begins, poster, when people make sure that there are no unnecessary personal pronouns in their statements.


Civil debate begins, poster, when all parties to a discussion are courteous and courageous enough to state their views as clearly and unambiguously as possible so that others may engage with and critique them. All that I have seen you contribute to any debate so far is a lot of disrespectful heckling and cryptic one-liners. Do you have anything else to offer, or are you just a "stinker" or "one-trick pony"? Please feel free to answer here or on my "What Kind of Blogger Are You?" thread.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:26 PM
Quote
BradJHammond said:
Civil debate begins, poster, when all parties to a discussion are courteous and courageous enough to state their views as clearly and unambiguously as possible so that others may engage with and critique them.
That's odd, because the other poster reckons to know what I think before knowing that.

Quote
All that I have seen you
More unnecessary personal pronouns. That gets exclusion from debates.

Quote
a lot of disrespectful heckling and cryptic one-liners.
Falsehoods, even more.
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:08 AM
When you start answering questions in a clear and concise manner and stop making ambiguous posts, then it is worth discussing things with you.
My response to you is not just based on that particular post from you; it is based on every post that I have read from you.

If by chance I am wrong about you, then I am going to need some evidence. Until then, I am just wasting my time, by trying to communicate with you.
The ball is in your court.

Tom
Posted By: Peter Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:46 PM
Ahh yes more ambiguous nonsense. I've also noticed you didn't answer my question either. So let me put it to you directly xyz: Christ's death on the cross, his atoning work, to whom does it directly benefit?

Try to be precise in your response.
Posted By: mercy Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:14 PM
In John 17, Jesus clearly states in V. 6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world", then in v. 9 I pray for them, i am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours"
Jesus died for those and only those that His Father had elected to salvation. There are many other scripture veres that support election, Ephesians 1, Romans 9
Posted By: Peter Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:22 PM
Quote
mercy said:
In John 17, Jesus clearly states in V. 6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world", then in v. 9 I pray for them, i am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours"
Jesus died for those and only those that His Father had elected to salvation. There are many other scripture veres that support election, Ephesians 1, Romans 9

Well thank you mercy however this question was directed to xyz and not to the general audience of this particular thread. My goal is to see 1.) If xyz will answer a direct query. 2.) Have xyz reveal what he believes concerning the atoning work of Christ.

This is not to denigrate your response at all please keep that in mind.
Posted By: mercy Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:02 PM
Sorry, I did not read the last post. Silly me to come blundering in the middle.
Posted By: Paul_S Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:42 PM
Mercy,

Speaking unofficially, but based on your forthright confession in your first post, not to mention your sole listing of Owen as your favorite author, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to find yourself quite at home here! No need to apologize for answering a direct question directly--and correctly--even if its intended target audience were another!
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:58 PM
[Linked Image] AMEN! to that! It is indeed refreshing to see another fellow believer who is unashamed to speak the truth, especially one who just joined a "strange" discussion board! [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] to The Highway Discussion Board, mercy!
Posted By: mercy Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:01 PM
Thanks,I am so excited to discuss theology with like-minded brothers and sisters. I am passionate about doctrine and mourn that so few are searching the Scripture to be sure that their calling and election are sure.
Posted By: Peter Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:32 AM
Do not concern yourself with it mercy I do it all the time myself.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:17 PM
Quote
xyz said:
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future. No-one can claim impunity against God.

However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ. So justice is perfectly served.

Is it a sin to reject the propitiation of Christ?
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:34 AM
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
xyz said:
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future. No-one can claim impunity against God.

However, not all will escape condemnation, because to reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ. So justice is perfectly served.

Is it a sin to reject the propitiation of Christ?
It is acceptable if one is without sin. But, because the Christ is the Christ because he alone is without sin, rejection is unacceptable, even folly. One may, like the 'blind' Pharisees, say that one does not sin, and that living a decent, law-abiding life is enough; or one may openly accept that one is a sinner, and even accept that Jesus' propitiation is effective, but refuse to give up the riches and 'pleasures' of this passing world. Either way, to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance, and put oneself under law and therefore condemnation.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:04 PM
Quote
xyz said:

It is acceptable if one is without sin. But, because the Christ is the Christ because he alone is without sin, rejection is unacceptable, even folly. One may, like the 'blind' Pharisees, say that one does not sin, and that living a decent, law-abiding life is enough; or one may openly accept that one is a sinner, and even accept that Jesus' propitiation is effective, but refuse to give up the riches and 'pleasures' of this passing world. Either way, to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance, and put oneself under law and therefore condemnation.

(Scriptural support for unrepentance being the unforgiveable sin?)

So Christ's propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant. This being the case, was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant? And if so, did Christ fail in His mission?
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:38 PM
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
xyz said:

It is acceptable if one is without sin. But, because the Christ is the Christ because he alone is without sin, rejection is unacceptable, even folly. One may, like the 'blind' Pharisees, say that one does not sin, and that living a decent, law-abiding life is enough; or one may openly accept that one is a sinner, and even accept that Jesus' propitiation is effective, but refuse to give up the riches and 'pleasures' of this passing world. Either way, to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance, and put oneself under law and therefore condemnation.

(Scriptural support for unrepentance being the unforgiveable sin?)

So Christ's propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant. This being the case, was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

Quote
And if so, did Christ fail in His mission?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.
Posted By: Robin Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:31 PM
Quote
xyz said:

Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

So then, no one has anything to worry about. If Christ has atoned for all the sins of all the people, then everyone is saved automatically whether they know it or not.

But the Bible clearly indicates that all are not saved, therefore we must conclude that Jesus did not atone for those people's sins. His sacrifice was certainly sufficient to do so, but His intention from before the foundation of the world was to atone only for the sins of the remnant called out from the fallen race of Adam.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:30 PM
Quote
xyz said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
xyz said:

It is acceptable if one is without sin. But, because the Christ is the Christ because he alone is without sin, rejection is unacceptable, even folly. One may, like the 'blind' Pharisees, say that one does not sin, and that living a decent, law-abiding life is enough; or one may openly accept that one is a sinner, and even accept that Jesus' propitiation is effective, but refuse to give up the riches and 'pleasures' of this passing world. Either way, to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance, and put oneself under law and therefore condemnation.

(Scriptural support for unrepentance being the unforgiveable sin?)

So Christ's propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant. This being the case, was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

Quote
And if so, did Christ fail in His mission?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

You've reiterated yourself, but you haven't answered my questions.

Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:51 PM
Quote
Robin said:
Quote
xyz said:

Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

So then, no one has anything to worry about. If Christ has atoned for all the sins of all the people, then everyone is saved automatically whether they know it or not.

But the Bible clearly indicates that all are not saved, therefore we must conclude that Jesus did not atone for those people's sins.
Not if we have read the thread.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:01 AM
Quote
xyz said:
Not if we have read the thread.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> I've read this thread and even contributed to it and I only see two basic and fundamentally antithetical answers:

1. Christ died for ALL and atoned for ALL sins, yet some are not not saved.

2. Christ died for the elect and atoned for ALL their sins, and thus all the elect are infallibly saved.

The first results in universalism. If one argues that not all are saved because they failed to do: xxxx or xxxx to finalize their salvation, then salvation is synergistic and not of grace. Either Christ's death was substitutionary and therefore accomplishes all that it was intended to do; vis a vis "save His people from their sins". Or, it was not substitutionary and thus something on the part of the sinner is required to accomplish salvation.

What say you? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:13 AM
xyz

I don't want to make it sound like I am attacking you personally, because I only want God's best for you. However, I don't know of a better way to say this.
Your bio, says that you have been an educator in theology for many years as well as a missionary and preacher.
If that is true, I am sorry to say this, but I wouldn't want you teaching my kids theology based on what you have written so far.
Your latest post says "Not if we have read the thread."
Pilgrim's answer to you is basically my opinion of the matter. I would also venture to guess that almost everyone who has read this thread would not see this issue the way you do.
So you saying: "Not if we have read the thread." Does not make any sense, I would expect a lot more coming from an educator. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" />
I don’t even mind the fact that you disagree, but you sure are not defending your position very well.
If you are not willing to defend what you believe, then for everyones sake, please don't participate.
More times than not, your posts leave me scratching my head. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Tom
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:05 AM
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Tom said:
xyz

I don't want to make it sound like I am attacking you personally, because I only want God's best for you. However, I don't know of a better way to say this.
Your bio, says that you have been an educator in theology for many years as well as a missionary and preacher.
If that is true, I am sorry to say this, but I wouldn't want you teaching my kids theology based on what you have written so far.
Your latest post says "Not if we have read the thread."
Pilgrim's answer to you is basically my opinion of the matter. I would also venture to guess that almost everyone who has read this thread would not see this issue the way you do.
One reader has noted the reference to the unforgivable sin. If one can do it, why not others?
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:26 AM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:

It is acceptable if one is without sin. But, because the Christ is the Christ because he alone is without sin, rejection is unacceptable, even folly. One may, like the 'blind' Pharisees, say that one does not sin, and that living a decent, law-abiding life is enough; or one may openly accept that one is a sinner, and even accept that Jesus' propitiation is effective, but refuse to give up the riches and 'pleasures' of this passing world. Either way, to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance, and put oneself under law and therefore condemnation.

(Scriptural support for unrepentance being the unforgiveable sin?)

So Christ's propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant. This being the case, was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

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And if so, did Christ fail in His mission?
Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

You've reiterated yourself, but you haven't answered my questions.

Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?
Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.
Posted By: Robin Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:17 PM
Then you are a universalist according to what you have asserted here. But if salvation is the work of God upon the elect, then Christ died only for them, and His eath was not effectual for the rest.

You can't have it both ways. Either salvation is an accomplished fact, effective for those it was intended for, or the blood of our Savior was mostly wasted, since the great majority of humankind is lost.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:49 PM
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Robin said:the blood of our Savior was mostly wasted, since the great majority of humankind is lost.
Who would be God if sin went unaccounted for?
Posted By: Tom Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:17 PM
I am sorry, but I haven't the foggiest what your answer is alluding to. If this is the way you talk to your students, how do they learn anything?

To other posters who are reading this, am I the only one that is getting frustrated with the way xyz answers others?

Tom
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:41 PM
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Tom said:
I am sorry, but I haven't the foggiest what your answer is alluding to. If this is the way you talk to your students, how do they learn anything?
They are used to theological language. To put the question in simpler terms: Who would be God if people could sin and get away with it?
Posted By: Paul_S Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:54 PM
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Tom asked:

am sorry, but I haven't the foggiest what your answer is alluding to. If this is the way you talk to your students, how do they learn anything?

To other posters who are reading this, am I the only one that is getting frustrated with the way xyz answers others?

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the sky with diamonds.

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Sorry, Tom, I couldn't resist attempting to try to answer you with as much meaning and logic as our alphabetically-inclined mutual acquaintance. You are absolutely right; without knowing his motivation, it seems clear that he has little interest in "hold[ing] firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it".

His fallback line, not only tossed about irrespective of context, is actually a complete non-sequitur, saying in effect, that since all sins have been paid for, everyone is guilty in God's sight. When one is reduced to that level of illogic it may indicate that further discourse will be unprofitable.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:27 AM
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xyz said:
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Tom said:
I am sorry, but I haven't the foggiest what your answer is alluding to. If this is the way you talk to your students, how do they learn anything?
They are used to theological language. To put the question in simpler terms: Who would be God if people could sin and get away with it?
How strange that some of us here are more than familiar with "theological language" but who, nonetheless, are more than confused by your responses. At best they seem evasive if not outright "illogical", as Paul_S stated.

RE: "To put the question in simpler terms: Who would be God if people could sin and get away with it?" Now truthfully, are you really asking (rhetorically it is assumed), if sin was not dealt with judicially, who would be God? I can't imagine anyone being God if sin was and is dealt with judicially. Are you SURE you are wanting to know, "who would be God"? but perhaps you meant to ask, "who would God be if sin wasn't dealt with judicially?" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Regardless of this mess, the fact remains that God HAS indeed dealt with sin; i.e., no one gets away with sin(ning) without receiving just punishment for it. The biblical teaching is that ALL men are punished for both being sinners by nature and thus they are under God's wrath. And they are punished for any and all sins; secret and overt. However, how and when they are punished is the matter at hand:

1. True believers were punished for their sinfulness and actual sins at the cross since the Lord Christ was their substitute AND they are clothed in Christ's imputed righteousness at the moment they believe in Christ.

2. Unbelievers will be punished at the final Judgment according to their sinful nature and for every transgression of God's holy law.

Thus, if Christ died as a perfect substitute for ALL men without exception, then de facto, ALL men must and will be saved. For in Christ the full wrath of God was poured out upon Him in punishment thus satisfying the full demands of the law. Since Christ atoned for ALL sins for those whom He died for, there is nothing..... NOTHING to warrant further punishment; including unbelief, rejection of some pet doctrine, etc., etc. ad infinitum. The biblical teaching is that ALL those who are given faith and repentance WILL not only come to Christ for justification but they also are given the indwelling Spirit Who works sanctification in them unto final glorification. Christ's atonement made a FULL SATISFACTION, for salvation is by grace alone (Sola Gratia), in Christ alone (Solus Christus) through faith alone (Sola Fide)! <====== Note: theological terms. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:44 AM
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Pilgrim said:
Since Christ atoned for ALL sins for those whom He died for, there is nothing..... NOTHING to warrant further punishment
There is if Christ's atonement is not accepted. To reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:41 AM
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xyz said:
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Pilgrim said:
Since Christ atoned for ALL sins for those whom He died for, there is nothing..... NOTHING to warrant further punishment
There is if Christ's atonement is not accepted. To reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ.
1. IF there is an exception, as you seem to suggest, then Christ did NOT atone for ALL sins, which leaves the sinner with something that must be atoned for by some other means. The result is, of course, that salvation is impossible since even the slightest infraction of the law incurs eternal punishment.

2. As has been explained on several occasions here, Christ's atonement was SUBSTITUTIONARY and totally SUFFICIENT for those for whom He died. Put simply in non-theological terms, salvation from beginning to end was SECURED in full and infallibly so for those whom Christ died. ALL that is necessary for salvation; regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification, is included in His vicarious, substitutionary atonement. When it is applied, the recipient infallibly repents and believes upon Christ and is preserved by grace to the end.

Christ put it quite simply when He said,


John 6:37-39 (ASV) "All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."


So, what part of this unassailable biblical truth do you not understand?
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:32 AM
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Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party, to turn away wrath. If Christ's propitiation (turning away the wrath of God) was on behalf of the unrepentant, His propitiation is ineffective if the unrepentant still remain subject to God's wrath. That is, Christ's turning away of God's wrath toward the unrepentant does not actually turn away God's wrath toward the unrepentant. If Christ died for all sins, past, present, and future, then his death is ineffective if anyone is still subject to God's wrath. There must then be some other principle that is effective in salvation other than Christ's death, whether man's choice or something else. It's not a matter of who decides what is or is not effective; it's a matter of logic and scriptural teaching. So, please answer my questions:

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Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:43 AM
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xyz said:
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Pilgrim said:
Since Christ atoned for ALL sins for those whom He died for, there is nothing..... NOTHING to warrant further punishment
There is if Christ's atonement is not accepted. To reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ.

You have previously stated that "Christ died for all sins, past, present, future." You have also stated that "to reject Christ's sacrifice is to commit the unforgivable sin, unrepentance." There is a pretty basic logical contradiction between these two statements.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:05 AM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
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Pilgrim said:
Since Christ atoned for ALL sins for those whom He died for, there is nothing..... NOTHING to warrant further punishment
There is if Christ's atonement is not accepted. To reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ.
1. IF there is an exception, as you seem to suggest
Where do I seem to suggest an exception?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:29 AM
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xyz said:
Where do I seem to suggest an exception?
Seriously, are you really that incapable of handling basic communication skills? never mind lacking in common logic? I have to believe that you sit there at your computer laughing away at us for trying to deal with your silly and nonsensical responses. [Linked Image]

However, I shall press on and answer your question with your very own reply given above:

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There is if Christ's atonement is not accepted. To reject substitutionary propitiation is to put oneself under law, and all under law are condemned, except Christ.
Well? There you have your exception in your very own words...... do you recall typing that statement yesterday? [Linked Image] "If Christ's atonement is not accepted.", you say; whatever that means. [Linked Image]

Therefore, you obviously hold that Christ died for ALL sins; past, present and future . . . EXCEPT for the sin of "rejecting substitutionary propitiation". So, how does one atone for that one sin should the person repent and seek forgiveness since Christ's atonement didn't cover that one sin?

Now, sit back and take a deep breath and TRY to think about this before answering. [Linked Image]
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:57 AM
"If Christ's atonement is not accepted."

That is not a sin per se. It is ok provided that one has some other means of justification. It is disastrous because there is no other means than Christ's atonement.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:44 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:02 PM
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xyz said:
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.
But you don't seem to believe and/or understand that truth. Let's look this from a human example:

You owe 5 Trillion dollars to a debtor.
You are incapable of work, you have no means whatsoever, and you are sitting in debtor's prison.
Someone comes along, takes pity on you and pays off your debt in full.
This person further agrees to pay for any and all debts you might incur in the future.
The Debtor is fully satisfied and thus you are no longer liable for the original debt nor any future debt.

It doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether you accept the other person's act of incredible generosity or not. The debt is PAID.... the debtor has been satisfied and thus no longer holds you accountable. If you want to go on thinking you still owe the money, that's fine, albeit stupid. But the LEGAL aspects of the matter have been closed. Flatly denying that the debt has been paid does not and cannot change the fact that it was paid. The issue was resolved by a transaction that occurred between another individual and the debtor. This is something you have no authority nor power to change. The prison cell door is wide open and you are free to walk out. Whether you choose to remain in that cell or walk out is up to you, but nevertheless, the DEBT IS PAID IN FULL.

Granted, the illustration is not a perfect one and there are some aspects of it which do not accord with the atonement of Christ, i.e., the fact that the ones for whom He died are given the desire and ability to recognize Christ for who He is and their personal need of His grace of salvation. They ALL are made willing in God's perfect time.

In His grace,
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:10 PM
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xyz said:
"If Christ's atonement is not accepted."

That is not a sin per se. It is ok provided that one has some other means of justification. It is disastrous because there is no other means than Christ's atonement.
More nonsensical double-talk eh? [Linked Image]

Your accepting or rejecting what Christ ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED does not annul it or make it effective. And again, ALL for whom Christ died will infallibly come to Him in repentance and faith since they too are gifts of grace which He merited for them in His substitutionary death.

1. The Father predestinates and elects some to salvation in Christ . . .
2. The Son atones for those whom the Father has chosen . . .
3. The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the atonement upon those who are elected to salvation.
4. DONE DEAL.

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:13 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.
But you don't seem to believe and/or understand that truth. Let's look this from a human example:

You owe 5 Trillion dollars to a debtor.
You are incapable of work, you have no means whatsoever, and you are sitting in debtor's prison.
Someone comes along, takes pity on you and pays off your debt in full.
This person further agrees to pay for any and all debts you might incur in the future.
The Debtor is fully satisfied and thus you are no longer liable for the original debt nor any future debt.

It doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether you accept the other person's act of incredible generosity or not. The debt is PAID.... the debtor has been satisfied and thus no longer holds you accountable. If you want to go on thinking you still owe the money, that's fine, albeit stupid.
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:47 PM
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xyz said:
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted. Again, Christ did NOT die for all men without exception else all men would be infallibly saved.

If a person refuses to admit that they stand guilty before God because they are worthless sinners, that they are at enmity with God and He with them, that God's wrath is upon them and unless they are justified in Christ they are worthy of condemnation, etc., then they obviously are not regenerate and at least at that moment have no interest in that redemption that Christ accomplished on the cross.

Being eternally condemned by their own consciences is a far cry from the condemnation the Scriptures teach. Those outside of Christ are liable to everlasting torment and will spend eternity in hell. The Positive and Explicit Nature of Christ’s Teaching Concerning Eternal Punishment

In His grace,
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:03 PM
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.

If someone pays my debt, the debt is cancelled, and regardless of whether I think I actually owed the debt, the one to whom I was indebted is not going to pursue me to collect the debt that someone else has paid on my behalf. If Christ turned away the wrath of God toward all persons, then no matter what they do, they will not go to hell where God's wrath is poured out, because God's wrath has been turned away from them. Or else, Christ only turned away God's wrath toward sinners in part or temporarily, because the unrepentant do go to hell.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:10 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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[quote]Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.

If someone pays my debt, the debt is cancelled, and regardless of whether I think I actually owed the debt, the one to whom I was indebted is not going to pursue me to collect the debt that someone else has paid on my behalf.[/quote]
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:56 PM
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
What, pray tell, does that mean? And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ? This really isn't that difficult to grasp. rolleyes2

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:10 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
What, pray tell, does that mean?
That a bad conscience condemns.

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And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ?
God is satisfied; he has the necessary 'payment'. What others do is their affair, on this count.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:00 PM
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xyz said:

But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.

You are truly a conundrum wrapped in an enigmna.

All hail the master of the non sequitur!
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:24 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:34 AM
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
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Pilgrim replied:
What, pray tell, does that mean?
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xyz then responded with:
That a bad conscience condemns.
But a condemning conscience has no bearing whatsoever on the salvation wrought by Christ for His sheep.

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Pilgrim also asked:
And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ?
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And xyz replied with:
God is satisfied; he has the necessary 'payment'. What others do is their affair, on this count.
Again, what does one's response to the completed work of Christ have to do with the efficacious saving work of Christ in behalf of His people? ALL for whom Christ died WILL come to Him. (Jh 6:37, 39)


Romans 8:29-39 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."


For the very last time . . . The salvation merited by Christ's active obedience (righteousness imputed) and passive obedience (vicarious substitution death) was COMPLETE. From all eternity, the triune God decreed that a remnant of Adam's fallen race would be saved. To that end Christ came into the world to save those whom the Father gave Him. The penalty for their sins was atoned for and the perfect righteousness demanded by the law is imputed to them. The Holy Spirit works regeneration in these elect individuals at God's appointed time creating faith in the heart and a new nature by which they are enabled to repent of their sins and flee to Christ believing upon Him unto justification. Hence forth the Spirit dwells within them working sanctification until they are called home to await the final judgment at which time they are glorified. It is impossible that those predestinated to salvation in Christ will remain in their sinful state and reject either the Lord Christ as their Redeemer-Savior or His vicarious substitutionary work for them. All others will continue in their rebellious state hating God, His Christ and all that is holy and good until the end and even through eternity being justly cast into perdition as they were appointed.

In His grace,
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:50 AM
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xyz said:

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Pilgrim said:
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?

John 1:12-13 (ASV) "But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 2:37-39 (ASV) "Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him."

Acts 3:19 (ASV) "Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"

Luke 24:45-47 (ASV) "Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

Mark 1:14-15 (ASV) "Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel."

Acts 5:30-31 (ASV) "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins."

Acts 10:42-43 (ASV) "And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God [to be] the Judge of the living and the dead. To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins."


In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:23 AM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:

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Pilgrim said:
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?

Acts 2:37-39 (ASV) "Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him."

Acts 3:19 (ASV) "Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"

These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:25 PM
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xyz said:
These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.
Okay..... either: 1) you are totally incapable of comprehending biblical theology nor interpreting Scripture according to its own hermeneutical principles, and/or 2) all this is nothing more than an amusing venture on your part. shrug

Regardless of which it is the truth remains that Christ's death was intended specifically for a specific number of individuals. For them, redemption was accomplished in full and it is applied when the Holy Spirit sovereignly and secretly works regeneration in them and infallibly brings them to Christ via repentance and faith. The result (conversion) is the "remission of sins", aka: justification. This is ALL a legal process albeit personal from conversion onward where the person is conscious of what is going on, at least in part. Assurance, the possession of a good conscience toward God varies greatly although it increases throughout the individual's life in sanctification. This is the biblical teaching and that which the historic Protestant Church has embraced and taught which can be evidenced in all the Reformation Confessions and Catechisms.

Now, you can do with this truth as you wish. Should you choose to reject it, that is to your own peril and effectively placing yourself outside the camp.

"No stone, nor steel, nor diamond is so hard as the impenitent heart of man." -- Luther

In His grace,
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:08 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.
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Christ's death was intended specifically for a specific number of individuals.
It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:06 PM
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xyz said:

It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

HELL is where the unrepentant account for their rebellion, where they spend eternity under the wrath of God. IF CHRIST DIED FOR THESE SAME PERSONS, His death was in vain inasmuch as they still end up in hell for their rebellion against God. If Christ died for all, he died for the sake of all. To say otherwise is illogical. However, if He did indeed die for all, then all must be saved, or else His death was in vain to the extent that anyone ends up in hell.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:45 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:

It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

HELL is where the unrepentant account for their rebellion, where they spend eternity under the wrath of God. IF CHRIST DIED FOR THESE SAME PERSONS, His death was in vain inasmuch as they still end up in hell for their rebellion against God.
How many does God think it worth dying for? He said that Sodom would not be destroyed if just ten righteous people were to be found in it- and who knows what he would have said if Abe had had the nerve to bid lower. Yet He also said that Abraham's descendants would be as as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore (though I can't see too many of them coming from this generation). So who is to say that Jesus' death was in vain?
Posted By: mercy Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:32 PM
xyz,
I read your posts and the patient answers you are being given and I can only say: Stop the craziness! What you post makes no sense and is not even remotely biblical. You post these comments as if they are fact and don't seem willing to understand what everyone is trying to tell you,. It seems to me too much time has been spent casting pearls....
If you were sincerely seeking the truth, it would be evident but you seem to be playing a game.
Posted By: Wes Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:04 PM
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xyz said:

So who is to say that Jesus' death was in vain?

The Apostle Paul addressed that very question in his letter to the Galatians. Chapter two verse twenty one tells us "If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." So we know that if a person thinks he can be saved by works of the law then to him Christ's death is in vain.

Christ did not die in vain


Wes
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:19 PM
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Wes said:
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xyz said:

So who is to say that Jesus' death was in vain?

The Apostle Paul addressed that very question in his letter to the Galatians. Chapter two verse twenty one tells us "If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." So we know that if a person thinks he can be saved by works of the law then to him Christ's death is in vain.
Very true.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:24 PM
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:

HELL is where the unrepentant account for their rebellion, where they spend eternity under the wrath of God. IF CHRIST DIED FOR THESE SAME PERSONS, His death was in vain inasmuch as they still end up in hell for their rebellion against God.
How many does God think it worth dying for? He said that Sodom would not be destroyed if just ten righteous people were to be found in it- and who knows what he would have said if Abe had had the nerve to bid lower. Yet He also said that Abraham's descendants would be as as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore (though I can't see too many of them coming from this generation). So who is to say that Jesus' death was in vain?

I am not saying that Jesus' death was in vain. You're saying that Jesus' death does not save the unrepentant because of their unrepentance; the unrepentant nullify Jesus' death for themselves. If that is the case, then Jesus died in vain for those who are unrepentant, because His death does not save them. That is the logical implication of all that you've been saying.
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:46 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:

HELL is where the unrepentant account for their rebellion, where they spend eternity under the wrath of God. IF CHRIST DIED FOR THESE SAME PERSONS, His death was in vain inasmuch as they still end up in hell for their rebellion against God.
How many does God think it worth dying for? He said that Sodom would not be destroyed if just ten righteous people were to be found in it- and who knows what he would have said if Abe had had the nerve to bid lower. Yet He also said that Abraham's descendants would be as as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore (though I can't see too many of them coming from this generation). So who is to say that Jesus' death was in vain?

I am not saying that Jesus' death was in vain. You're saying that Jesus' death does not save the unrepentant because of their unrepentance; the unrepentant nullify Jesus' death for themselves. If that is the case, then Jesus died in vain for those who are unrepentant, because His death does not save them.
It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:54 PM
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xyz said:

It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

Copying and pasting what you've previously said is not a reply. It is intellectual sloth. Keep this up, and you won't be here long. bif
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:41 AM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:

It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

Copying and pasting what you've previously said is not a reply.

You read and understood it the first time?
Posted By: Wes Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:12 PM
xyz,

I must confess I haven't read every reply in this (now very long) thread but since you been debating the question "for whom did Christ die" I'd like to ask you which of the following statements do you believe to be true?


1. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.

Please provide Scripture texts which support your view.


Wes
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:29 PM
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Wes said:
xyz,

I must confess I haven't read every reply in this (now very long) thread but since you been debating the question "for whom did Christ die" I'd like to ask you
Why me?
Posted By: Wes Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:35 PM
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xyz said:
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Wes said:
xyz,

I must confess I haven't read every reply in this (now very long) thread but since you been debating the question "for whom did Christ die" I'd like to ask you

Why me?

Why not you? Everyone seems confused by your replies and it would be good for us to know where you stand in regards to this matter. If you chose not to reply then it becomes obvious that you are disingenuos and further communication would be fruitless.

So again I ask.... which of the following statements do you believe to be true?


1. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.

Please provide Scripture texts which support your view.


Wes
Posted By: xyz Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:09 PM
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Wes said:
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xyz said:
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Wes said:
xyz,

I must confess I haven't read every reply in this (now very long) thread but since you been debating the question "for whom did Christ die" I'd like to ask you

Why me?

Why not you? Everyone seems confused by your replies
They do? Ask on your own account.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:30 PM
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:

It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

Copying and pasting what you've previously said is not a reply.

You read and understood it the first time?

I made this reply the first time.

It appears everyone in this thread who has replied to you has experienced frustration with your responses. We're not all idiots, XYZ. Some lucidity on your part would be appreciated, but if you're not willing to make yourself clear or to provide legitimate responses to our questions & comments, you will be banned.
Posted By: MarieP Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:17 PM
I cannot even understand the ABC's of XYZ's posts...
Posted By: Wes Re: For Whom Did Christ Die? - Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:08 PM
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xyz said:

They do? Ask on your own account.

Don't act stupid... I am asking on my own account and that of others as well. If you can't answer a simple question and provide the basis for the position you hold then you are a phony! No one here is interested in playing games with you in our Theology Forum. If you are going to be silly at least put your replies in the Lighter Side forum where we might get a laugh out of it.


Wes
Posted By: CovenantInBlood THREAD IS NOW LOCKED - Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:38 PM
Due to a number of frivolous replies, this thread is now locked.
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