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Posted By: John_C New heavens and new earth - Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:23 PM
What can we say about the new heavens and new earth Will it be in the physical/material realm? Are there varying views in orthodox Christianity on it than say, eschatolology? If so, what are they?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: New heavens and new earth - Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:23 PM
John,

My view is that the New Earth will be this physical earth which will be renewed, and which will far exceed the Garden of Eden in all its pristine spendor.

There are varying views, but I would rather those who hold to them share them. grin
Posted By: jd.morrison Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:30 AM
Yes, the Greek in the Apocalypse of John describes a renewing of the Heavens and Earth, not a destruction of the Old and a making of the New. You could also view it as, "make as New"...

In essences the scars of the consequences of sin will be washed from Creation and Creation will no longer be hostile to Man.

We will have physical bodies, resurrection bodies, but physical bodies nonetheless.

We will eat, we will drink, and we will walk with Christ Jesus and worship God perfectly with the rest of the Church.

The thing we need to remember is that when God created the universe He said it was good. When He created the animals and the plants He said they were good. When He created Man, He said it was good, though not that he be alone.
Posted By: John_C Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:26 PM
How do we mean when we say physical, spiritual, resurrected bodies? Jesus walked along the road with the two men, and he walked right through a door at the house the disciples were staying, and he just appeared or vanished. So, what precisely do we mean when we say physical bodies? Will there be no work in any upkeep with our bodies or gardening the earth or gathering the crops?

What will happened to Heaven and how about Hell? Do heavens in Revelation mean 'the sky' because why would heaven need restoring.

Why would we need to meet Jesus in the sky when we will be staying on this 'new earth'. It seems a step could be cut out by just remaining here and having our bodies changed?

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:00 PM
Originally Posted by John_C
How do we mean when we say physical, spiritual, resurrected bodies? Jesus walked along the road with the two men, and he walked right through a door at the house the disciples were staying, and he just appeared or vanished. So, what precisely do we mean when we say physical bodies? Will there be no work in any upkeep with our bodies or gardening the earth or gathering the crops?
As to the makeup of our new "incorruptible/spiritual" bodies, this is an area where we really don't have a lot of specific information. However:
1. We shall be recognizable, which we learn from the disciples recognizing Christ after His resurrection.
2. Not sure about Jesus walking "right through a door"... I think this is unclear.
3. Re: appearing and vanishing, I'm not sure that this pertains to us. It may be unique to the incarnate God.
4. I believe we shall be occupied with work on the New Earth, tending to it as did Adam in the Garden.
5. Re: upkeep of our bodies. Again, not much information given. But eating and drinking will be something we can do. Whether if will be necessary is likewise unclear. What is clear is that God created man with a body and a soul. The body is the 'house' for the soul and thus it is necessary.

Originally Posted by John_C
What will happened to Heaven and how about Hell? Do heavens in Revelation mean 'the sky' because why would heaven need restoring.
The word 'heaven' is used in different ways. One of the meanings is the 'abode' of God and the angels. Of course, God is not contained in heaven like the angelic beings, for they are finite. In this regard there isn't going to be much change other than the Devil and all the other rebellious angels will be removed from it. This is part of the restoration of both heaven and earth. All that was negatively affected by the Fall will be gone and transformed into perfect harmony and purity.

Originally Posted by John_C
Why would we need to meet Jesus in the sky when we will be staying on this 'new earth'. It seems a step could be cut out by just remaining here and having our bodies changed?
Between the second resurrection and our glorification the Great White Throne Judgment must take place where justice and mercy are finalized. This cannot be eliminated, for there the great plan of God for the universe is revealed in all its glory.
Posted By: John_C Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:04 PM
Thanks for all the information, and I am certainly not disputing any of it. It is just that it is best for me to see Heaven, my eternal home, as being a great, majestic place without trying to get into the details. It seems their will be too many believers to live in the garden setup like Adam and Eve. As a side note, what if you hate doing yard work.

Are you saying that present Heaven will be transposed into the new earth(which suggests the 'renewed' landscape of earth as we know it) or vice versa. Is current Heaven a physical location or in the realm of the spiritual. Can the same question be asked of Hell? If in the realm of spiritual, will Hell remain in the spiritual realm? If not, where will Hell be located at in relation to the 'new earth'?

I'm sorry for being such a detailed pest but there are so many questions once a person starts going down the path of trying to understand what will Heaven be like.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:29 PM
Originally Posted by John_C
Thanks for all the information, and I am certainly not disputing any of it. It is just that it is best for me to see Heaven, my eternal home, as being a great, majestic place without trying to get into the details. It seems their will be too many believers to live in the garden setup like Adam and Eve. As a side note, what if you hate doing yard work.
1. Re: "too many believers"... methinks you have misunderstood something here. The original, physical Garden of Eden isn't going to be remade. nope The entire physical earth is going to be remade and I'm suggesting that it will transcend the beauty and splendor of the original Garden and Eden, i.e., the whole earth will reflect God's creative genius and glory.

2. Re: "hating yard work"... giggle Since there will be no hatred, not even a dislike of anything, I think you have nothing to worry about.

Originally Posted by John_C
Are you saying that present Heaven will be transposed into the new earth(which suggests the 'renewed' landscape of earth as we know it) or vice versa.
nope As I mentioned previously, the word 'heaven' can have different meanings, e.g., that place apart from the terrestrial earth where birds and other flying creatures travel. Or, it can mean the dwelling place of God, which is a rather interesting concept since God is infinite. But the physical creation, e.g., the earth isn't going to become heaven nor is heaven, that spiritual realm going to be transposed into a physical earth. They are two separate things.

Originally Posted by John_C
Is current Heaven a physical location or in the realm of the spiritual.
See above.

Originally Posted by John_C
Can the same question be asked of Hell? If in the realm of spiritual, will Hell remain in the spiritual realm? If not, where will Hell be located at in relation to the 'new earth'?
My understanding of Hell is that of a special place totally separate from heaven and earth; old or new. It is inaccessible to any created being except for those who are sentenced to spend eternity there. Further, it is a 'spiritual realm', yet I believe Scripture teaches that those destined for Hell will have a body which will suffer eternal torment no less than the soul. Details are sketchy and I'm not one to get into foolish speculation. What I do know with all certainty, Hell isn't what I'm looking forward to, thanks be to God and Christ Jesus who suffered its pangs for me. grin
Posted By: Tom Re: New heavens and new earth - Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:07 PM
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As a side note, what if you hate doing yard work.

I agree with the answer that Pilgrim gave you on this, but would like to ask you something related to your quote.

Do you think that our new bodies will be subject to the curse?

As I think about work in the here and now, I usually don't mind yard work, in fact I like it. However, there are many times that because of health issues, I find things like yard work anything but enjoyable.
I believe all that will change, when I get my new body that will not be subject to health concerns. Health concerns are related directly to the curse.
Tom

Posted By: Hitch Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:49 PM
The prophet speaks of death and sin in the NH&E, you gents steeped in Reformed teachings have often surprised me but I dont think I was ever so far off as to allow for sin and death in eternity. If someone has covered this I missed it, this being; If the NH&E are yet future it follows that the cross and resurrection are much more limited in scope than I reckon. If the greatest change in history was not Christ being raised from the dead, and how could it be if we exist under the same H&E as Abe and Moses, then it must be something else,I cant imagine what.

H
Posted By: jd.morrison Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:08 PM
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Do you think that our new bodies will be subject to the curse?
Absolutely NOT! Our "renewed" bodies will have no sign of ever being cursed. We will be as we were supposed to be, and actually even better than we ever were. We will be 100% sanctified when Christ returns and sin no more.

Here are a few articles by Desiring God:


[b]Do we receive the same body we had on earth at the resurrection?[/b]

[b]If our souls are immortal, why do our bodies need to be resurrected?[/b]

Will the resurrection of the body be a physical resurrection from the dead?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:41 PM
Hitch,

I have to admit that I'm totally confused.

1. Is this a statement concerning your own personal view(s)? or a quote from someone else?

2. Can you clarify what this statement is getting at?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Hitch Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:58 PM
Y soitenly....

Quote
What can we say about the new heavens and new earth Will it be in the physical/material realm? Are there varying views in orthodox Christianity on it than say, eschatolology? If so, what are they?

The quote from the prophet;

17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The context and v20 directly rule out eternity. I think literalism has as good a place here as it does in J 11;26.

The two gratest moments in history were the Fall and the Resurrection. Which brings up the question; Which of these is the greater?


This is my own view but its hardly original, if memory serves its close to Boettner's and Gentry's.

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Hitch
The quote from the prophet;

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


The context and v20 directly rule out eternity. I think literalism has as good a place here as it does in J 11;26.[/color]
scratchchin Again, I'm really puzzled because the CONTEXT begins in verse 17 with "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:", which certainly is referring to the eternal state, e.g.,

2 Peter 3:10-13 (ASV) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

It seems quite clear, at least to me that this NT passage, which takes precedence over an OT passage which is less clear to boot, is that the present creation is going to be cleansed by fire from which process a new heaven and earth will emerge purified. And one more:

Revelation 21:1-5 (ASV) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true."

Here again, we have the "new heaven and a new earth" which is the new creation, the telos of God's redemptive plan for the ages, aka: the eternal state.

So, either you take verse 17 'literally' along with the rest of the passage up to Isa 20 (no pick & choose allowed), which means it is a description of the eternal state. OR, you redefine the phrase "new heaven and a new earth" to mean something entirely different and temporal compared to all the other passages which clearly speak of them as the final eschaton. I opt for the former and take it literally as referring to the eternal state and see the rest of the passage, including v. 20 as a contrast to what was the current situation of Isaiah's day, i.e., death predominated both children and adults and long life was but a fading dream.

"Posties" take this passage in a similar manner as the Dispensationalists because they too are looking for some alleged "Golden Age", a literal Millennium on earth. Obviously, I disagree. grin
Posted By: Tom Re: New heavens and new earth - Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:03 AM
jd
I was addressing that to John, but in case I wasn't clear, I agree with you that our new bodies are not subjected to the curse.

Tom
Posted By: Hitch Re: New heavens and new earth - Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by Hitch
The quote from the prophet;

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


The context and v20 directly rule out eternity. I think literalism has as good a place here as it does in J 11;26.
scratchchin Again, I'm really puzzled because the CONTEXT begins in verse 17 with "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:", which certainly is referring to the eternal state, e.g.,
You do strain at times Pilgrim. This is one of those times. Isa no more certainly refers to the eternal state than the writer of Hebrews refers to the physical planet (9;26) And to say the prophet jumps from before the Messiah straight on the the eternal state, as though the church is parenthetical ?
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2 Peter 3:10-13 (ASV) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

It seems quite clear, at least to me that this NT passage, which takes precedence over an OT passage which is less clear to boot, is that the present creation is going to be cleansed by fire from which process a new heaven and earth will emerge purified. And one more:
If memory serves Owen relates this passage to the destruction.
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Revelation 21:1-5 (ASV) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true."

Here again, we have the "new heaven and a new earth" which is the new creation, the telos of God's redemptive plan for the ages, aka: the eternal state.
As is the christian believer a new creature, believers are certainly a current reality, and Christ according to Hebrews came in the end of the world.
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So, either you take verse 17 'literally' along with the rest of the passage up to Isa 20 (no pick & choose allowed), which means it is a description of the eternal state. OR, you redefine the phrase "new heaven and a new earth" to mean something entirely different and temporal compared to all the other passages which clearly speak of them as the final eschaton. I opt for the former and take it literally as referring to the eternal state and see the rest of the passage, including v. 20 as a contrast to what was the current situation of Isaiah's day, i.e., death predominated both children and adults and long life was but a fading dream.
That one stretched so far it broke. I dont see that it makes any sense at all according to the text and is arrived at by need.
Quote
"Posties" take this passage in a similar manner as the Dispensationalists because they too are looking for some alleged "Golden Age", a literal Millennium on earth. Obviously, I disagree. grin
Actually the A -Mil and the Dispensationalists agree that the work of the cross and the resulting resurrection of Christ leave the world in much the same sate as before the Nativity and both expect the Gospel to lose effectiveness as history continues.

As the song says ;' Bad Company' heh heh
Posted By: John_C Re: New heavens and new earth - Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:53 AM
Originally Posted by Tom
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As a side note, what if you hate doing yard work.

Do you think that our new bodies will be subject to the curse?

Tom, you take my statement too seriously. I was just having fun with that statement, the curse was nowhere on my radar. Christians are under no condemnation, so the curse does not pertain to us eternally.
Posted By: Tom Re: New heavens and new earth - Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:07 AM
John

I am glad to hear that, but the way you said that I didn't see anything (perhaps I missed it?) to idicate that you were not serious.

Tom
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: New heavens and new earth - Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:05 PM
Originally Posted by Hitch
The quote from the prophet;

17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The context and v20 directly rule out eternity. I think literalism has as good a place here as it does in J 11;26.

The two gratest moments in history were the Fall and the Resurrection. Which brings up the question; Which of these is the greater?


This is my own view but its hardly original, if memory serves its close to Boettner's and Gentry's.

Hitch, we still live in a world in which children die in infancy (indeed, many before they are even born) & very few people yet live to be 100 years old. How does this description apply to the current state of affairs between the resurrection & the final judgement? It obviously does not. We do not yet live in the new heavens & earth.
Posted By: MarieP Re: New heavens and new earth - Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:42 AM
AMEN!!!

My pastor has often said that, if this cursed earth is this beautiful, what's the redeemed one going to look like!!!!
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