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Posted By: ATulipNotADaisy Justice or Wrath? - Wed May 26, 2021 2:30 AM
Is the Christian saved from God’s justice? Would it be more accurate to say the Christian is saved from God’s wrath?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Justice or Wrath? - Wed May 26, 2021 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by ATulipNotADaisy
Is the Christian saved from God’s justice? Would it be more accurate to say the Christian is saved from God’s wrath?
The first statement is totally wrong and unbiblical.
The second statement is correct and definitely biblical.

Just a few remarks re: "the Christian is saved from God's justice". The truth and the doctrine which is uncontrovertibly taught in the Bible and upon which anyone is saved is that of the vicarious substitutionary atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ. God's holiness cannot be diminished, compromised or excluded. To put it in the vernacular, God does not and CANNOT 'wink at sin'. Those who are guilty of sin MUST BE punished. And we also know that ALL human beings, even those just conceived in the womb are infinitely guilty of sin:

Romans 5:9-12 (ASV) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath [of God] through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: (cf. Ezek 18:4; Rom 3:23; 1Cor 15:21,22; et al)
For anyone to be rescued from certain death; spiritual, physical, and eternal, justice must be met. And justice demands that God be appeased (propitiation) and the person from which sin comes must be punished. Thus, the eternal good pleasure to redeem a remnant of Adam's fallen race was accomplished by the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY... John Murray phrased this as the antecedent absolute necessity of the atonement, i.e., the eternal divine Son of God came to earth, took upon Himself human flesh; a body created for Him, lived a perfect holy and righteous life and was crucified on a cross, bearing the sins of those whom the Father decreed to save (cf. Isa 53:4-6,9-12; Rom 3:24-26, 8:1-4,29,30; Gal 3:13, 4:3-5; 2Cor 5:21; 1Pet 3:18; et al). We who have received the mercy and grace of God were judged by God and found guilty and worthy of eternal death and punished for our sins according to the demands of God's perfect and just law... at the cross in the person of the Lord Christ. NO ONE can ever be said to be considered "not guilty" because of Christ. Again, Christians are found profoundly guilty of transgressing the law of God at conception and worthy of death. Indeed, we have a Saviour who took our place and received in Himself that which was due to us. We should be in awe at the unfathomable love, mercy and grace of God and what price was paid for our salvation in Christ Jesus our LORD.

1 John 3:1-3 (ASV) 1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and [such] we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. 3 And every one that hath this hope [set] on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Posted By: ATulipNotADaisy Re: Justice or Wrath? - Thu May 27, 2021 2:40 PM
Isn't this quote essentially saying the same thing? "I am considered NOT GUILTY IN CHRIST. That is called Justice."
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Justice or Wrath? - Thu May 27, 2021 4:02 PM
Originally Posted by ATulipNotADaisy
Isn't this quote essentially saying the same thing? "I am considered NOT GUILTY IN CHRIST. That is called Justice."
Dunno... giggle But I'm going to be picky on this one. I like Luther's statement and one of the by-words of the Reformation: "simul iustus et peccatore", i.e., "at the same time justified and sinner". I don't want to in any way to distort the doctrine of IMPUTATION as taught in the Scriptures. The Lord Christ had our guilt imputed to Him and Christ's perfect righteousness is imputed to us. As I stated above, we are judged guilty and sentenced to eternal damnation at conception. The active obedience of Christ is accredited to us and His passive obedience (death) fulfills our condemnation = vicarious substitutionary atonement. As Paul exclaimed, "I have been crucified with Christ..." (Gal 2:20). Yes, God looks upon the redeemed sinner as perfectly righteous in regard to the law since the law's demands have been totally satisfied; justice was fulfilled in Him in our behalf. THAT is why I have problems with "considered NOT GUILTY IN CHRIST". Because justice was satisfied, the demands of the law no longer apply and thus being "not guilty" is, in my opinion, not applicable. Am I clear on this as far as my view is concerned? scratch1
Posted By: ATulipNotADaisy Re: Justice or Wrath? - Thu May 27, 2021 5:21 PM
Yes, Pilgrim. Thank you.
Posted By: godrulez Re: Justice or Wrath? - Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:51 AM
We are all guilty we’re just not getting what we deserve; we got a “get out of jail free card.” We got mercy because God had mercy on us. God gave us a sense of our guilt to even come to Jesus in the first place! Having a little sin recognition is not a bad thing even tough we are set free from the law, we are empowered to fulfill it. So we keep moving forward this same way in the spirit albeit with full assurance.

John 16:8

And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment:

Romans 8:4-6

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Justice or Wrath? - Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by godrulez
We are all guilty we’re just not getting what we deserve; we got a “get out of jail free card.”
nope Those whom God by His Spirit are regenerated and brought to Christ and united to Him through faith are given to know that they are not only guilty to the utmost degree and worthy of eternal punishment... but they have received the just judgment of God. They have NOT been given a "get out of jail free card", but were crucified WITH CHRIST. This is one of the most fundamental and near incomprehensible doctrines of the Christian faith; the vicarious, substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe what the Spirit wrote through the apostle Paul, thank you!!

Galatians 2:20 (KJV) "20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

2 Corinthians 5:14 (KJV) "14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:"

Galatians 3:13 (ASV) "13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ASV) "21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him."

Romans 3:24-26 (ASV) "24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth [to be] a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, [I say], of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus."

We who are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ have not and never shall experience the horror of God's punishment of our own souls. However, having been united to Christ we do experience the unbearable weight of our own sins and sinfulness (conviction of sin) and vicariously know and feel something of Christ's suffering in our place. Thus, we are eternally thankful and praise God for His Son who gave Himself for (in behalf of) us. When the law is brought home to our minds and hearts, we die.

Romans 7:9-11 (ASV) " 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, which [was] unto life, this I found [to be] unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me."

Romans 6:4-9 (ASV) "4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him."
Posted By: godrulez Re: Justice or Wrath? - Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:47 PM
Ok. That’s why I put “get out of jail” in quote marks, as a paraphrase of this verse:

Romans 6:7

for the one who has died is freed from sin.

The word for died is in the aorist tense and we surely do die a death like Christ’s. However, the word for freed, is in the perfect passive tense which indicates we die a death at a point in time and this continues and is done by someone not ourselves (as it is Christ who works in us).

Only because of this great act of mercy do we continue being made free of sin.

1 Peter 4:1

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.

The word ceased here is also in the perfect passive tense (an action started and continued by someone else—namely,God).

The war of our rebellion is over.

Romans 8:39

nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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