Intellect & Denomination

Hi All, I first of all want to put out a disclaimer that this question may not be thought though very well but.....here it goes. As I was pondering a discussion we had in my Logic & Reasoning class, this question came to mind: does a Christian's intellectual capacities have any bearing on their choice of denomonation? To try and clarify the question I'll use an example of preference of an individual style of preaching as opposed to a particular denomination. Such as, would a person who is considered highly intellectual prefer a Ravi Zacharias or RC Sproul to say an Adrian Rogers, whose presentation of the gospel is very simplistic, and I don't mean that in a negative sense. Any thoughts? Does it matter? Did I just waste five minutes of my life by giving this any consideration?[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]

The answer to your first question is no IMHO howard

Not their intellectual capacities, but definitely their intellectual preferences. For instance, some may prefer to study the Bible in earnest while others may enjoy more of the emotional aspects. Some may enjoy expositional sermons through a book while others enjoy topical where the subject changes more often. Some likes longer, detailed sermons which gives their minds an exercise where others like more music and liturgy where they can participate more actively.

thredj,<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"].....does a Christian's intellectual capacities have any bearing on their choice of denomonation?<hr></blockquote>I think it not only does, but it should. In Matthew 22:37 Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." If a denomination is not faithful to the Word of God we should use not only our intellectual capacities but our spiritual discernment and remove ourselves from this unfaithful group. You also made reference to R.C.Sproul and Ravi Zacharias as compared to Adrian Rogers. In this comparison I'd say we all have preferences regarding intellect, teaching style, and presentation, but most important is being faithful to the text. It's not whether it's simple or profound but is God glorified and are the people edified. Is Jesus Christ being lifted up? Is the preacher leading us in God-centered worship or man-centered worship? When we are in a worship service whether we are led by a simple man or an intellectual theologian its important to remember we worship God in spirit and in truth. Wes

Dear Thredj: Though this may not be what you are specifically asking, I think it has a bearing on the question, and the basis for it. You mentioned the relationship to intellectual capacities and worship/denomination. I couldn't help but be reminded of the experience of one of Christendoms brightest intellectual lights in this regard, the Dr. John Owen. His biographer relates how he had for several years been in an agony over his eternal state, yes, even while functioning in a clerical capacity, if memory serves, as he believed he believed but he had no assurance of that belief and he longed desperately for it. In this condition one Lord's day he and a friend went to hear a rather famous preacher of the day, Calamay, as I recall, hoping to have some light shed on the Word as it applied to Dr. Owens case. When they got there and were seated they realized that not Rev. Calamay but an unknown unheard of preacher was to deliver the message. They nearly got up and left but decided to stay. It was during that message, and through that messenger, that the Lord chose to deliver Dr. Owen from his bondage and to reveal with power His Son in him. Needless to say, Dr. Owen, most greatful, sought many times to find out the name of the preacher and to see and thank him, but was never able to do so (at least in this life) but I suspect they both have now long since rejoiced together in the immediate and uninterupted presence of the Lord's Beauty and Holiness. Thus ultimately, in my view, it is not so much the intellect, either of the hearer or the messenger, though these are not to be snuffed at, but rather the sovereign and gracious work of the Great Teacher, Applier and Illuminator of Souls which is the most salient issue. In Him, Gerry

Good points, Gerry. I prefer expository sermons over topical ones, and that was a definite factor in choosing my church and my Sunday School class (called the Expositor's Class for the obvious reason)

In my experience, no. I consider myself to be highly intellectual, and I prefer a "high" liturgy e.g. lot's of hymns, corporate and responsive readings, etc. Whereas, people in my old church (I will not say they are not intellectual, they're rather average) and they prefer less participation, more sermon.

But wouldn't a person who prefers more sermon be more of the thinking type? Of course, some sadly use the sermon time to put themselves on auto-pilot or write out their list of groceries.

Not necessarily, although the logic is good. Most of the people in my church (I think) just kind of zone out. But then, they all are pretty old. I don't think I can blame them. (Nathan puts on his flame-retardant suit) OK Pilgrim, howard, and PrestorJohn go ahead and tell me about how old people are still active and such and such. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/nuts.gif" alt="nuts" title="nuts[/img]

Gerry, Thanks for the example. It made me think back to the account of Spurgeon's conversion. I believe Spurgeon described the preacher on the day of his conversion as an "unlettered" man. But nonetheless the Spirit of God was at work that day. I think the conversion of a person in itself doesn't have to be under extraordinary circumstances but afterwards would an intellectual or non-intellectual believer grow in the faith if they were a part of church or under preaching that was opposite to their level of intellect? Would that person feel somewhat detached or possibly unable to comprehend? I think the heart of this question was answered by Wes however. In whose opinion I wholeheartedly agree. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"] In this comparison I'd say we all have preferences regarding intellect, teaching style, and presentation, but most important is being faithful to the text. It's not whether it's simple or profound but is God glorified and are the people edified. Is Jesus Christ being lifted up? Is the preacher leading us in God-centered worship or man-centered worship? When we are in a worship service whether we are led by a simple man or an intellectual theologian its important to remember we worship God in spirit and in truth.<hr></blockquote> Thanks for your respones everyone.

thredj, Might I add, that it is very well possible for a preacher to deliver profound sermons in a way that a "non-intellectual" individual is able to comprehend it. I think this is a mark of a Pastor; i.e., making known the mystery of Christ, which is beyond our ability to truly comprehend in such a way that even a child can understand it and so that it makes an impact upon one's life, WITHOUT diminishing the truth (aka: dumbing down). That is why a man who occupies the pulpit MUST be called of God and gifted by the Holy Spirit. Preaching the Word is not only a privilege, demanding serious responsibility, but also a gift. Thomas Perkins, who wrote on preaching, named his book rightly, IMHO, as The Art of Prophesying. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] Thus regardless of one's intellectual prowess or education, what should be sought after is a preacher who is first able to expound the Scriptures rightly AND in such a way that ALL his hearers are able to leave the church changed in both knowledge and heart.<blockquote>Colossians 1:28 (KJV) "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" 2 Timothy 4:1-5 (ASV) "I charge [thee] in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry."</blockquote>In His Grace,

I may be old (43) , but I am certainly no intelect . I was a construction/demolition labourer since the age of 16. I am unable to tackle Van Till as yet but then again when I was a baptist, Owen and Calvin did not make easy reading for me . But now they are a lot easier for me (apart from their use of Latin, Greek and Hebrew , of which I know nothing ). This has nothing to do with intelect IMHO , it is The Holy Spirit prompting in the right direction I believe. I have learnt more in the last 2 years as an paedobaptist than I did in 6 years as a baptist which is not a result of my intellect I assure you ! Do you rember how you felt when you embraced TULIP for the first time as Biblical Truth ? I nearly died of shock ! This also happened when I discovered Infant Baptism too. The Bible becomes bigger and brighter as The Holy Spirit continues to educate me . This is nothing to do with intelect. Tis the work of The Father , Son and Holy Ghost . howard

Dear thredj: I appreciate your reply and I haven't read the story of Spurgeon's conversion, but would like to. I agree that Wes's response is on target and I guess that I would only add that it seems to me that those of us who have a tendency to be more intellectual or live in our minds, need to be reminded more that others that the mind, without the influence of the Spirit, is useless in spiritual things. I have noticed that sometimes the most simple of people have great wisdom in spiritual things but they are often overlooked because they don't have the education or verbal ability to articulate their views. I believe such are particularly close to the Lords heart. On the other hand, I have also seen simple people glory in their ignorance, if you know what I mean, so the pendelum swings both ways. To me, it seems that we must know ourselves and our own weaknesses and tendencies to err and watch and pray against them. I think a really balanced ministry is neither intellectual nor non intellectual per se, but rather strives to present the whole counsel in a way that all can understand it and I think that is basically what Wes was saying. In Him, Gerry

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]I have noticed that sometimes the most simple of people have great wisdom in spiritual things but they are often overlooked because they don't have the education or verbal ability to articulate their views. I believe such are particularly close to the Lords heart. <hr></blockquote> I have known people like those you have described and, at least in my experience, they were all devoted to intercessory prayer. I think this is why they are so close to the Lord and so encouraging to those around them. My grandma was one such saint. Her head would no doubt be spinning if she read some of the doctrinal threads that I find so stimulating, however she gently and lovingly served everyone she came in contact with as if she were serving Christ Himself and never hesitated to share the Gospel or give a word of comfort to those around her.

Dear Kim: Thanks for that response and for the words about your grandma. I bet she was a joy to know. Such people seem to know "intuitively" the things that others seem to have to learn by way of the mind. There are many times when I wish I was more like that. In Him, Gerry

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]There are many times when I wish I was more like that.<hr></blockquote> Me, too.

You know you're a one note song Howard everything doesn't revolve around Infant Baptism. Its unbelievable to me how you can take a conversation like denominations and intellect and drag it to Infant Baptism!

I thank God that I baptized none of you, except Crispus and Gaius, (1 Corinthians 1:14)

Think about that Howard. He was thanking God he didn't baptize any of the Corinthians. Could it be that Baptism isn't as important as you want to make it?

By the way Nathan I'm sure Pilgrim and I can run rings around you any day of the week. Depending on what the activity is of course. Twenty years ago I got my kicks doing full contact karate. Now I may do Tai Chi but I still can come up to speed. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/gramps.gif" alt="gramps" title="gramps[/img]

I personally like preaching or teaching that is intellectual enough to make me think, but not so intellectual as to go right over my head. Occasionally I like to read someone like John Owen, but I only do so when I am wide awake and have time to read the odd sentence a couple of times to make sure I understood it. I shall be eternally grateful to Dr. JI Packer for his introductory to Owen's The Death of Death... it helped me immensely. Tom

If Baptism is as important as I want to make it, then why did the antipaedobaptists split the chuch some 500 years ago ? Baptists began this divide - you would do well never to forget this tragic fact . I certainly wont . BTW , one should not take scripture out of context as you have done . I suggest you read all of 1 Corinthians for the context . Otherwise I could retort with the next but one verse where Paul baptised the HOUSEHOLD of Stephanas. But of course I would never do that ! I have a Christian friend who gave up Karate and Tai chi when he was saved as he believed martial arts to be evil . I shall ask him for more detail if you are interested. howard

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]I have a Christian friend who gave up Karate and Tai chi when he was saved as he believed martial arts to be evil.<hr></blockquote>Why not ask ME? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] I studied in quite a number of the Martial Arts with both Japanese, Korean, and Western Sensies for over 25 years. I taught Martial Arts to State Police and local law enforcement officers, in schools and to private individuals. Without reservation, I can tell you that there is NOTHING even remotely "evil" about Martial Arts. When I hear stuff like that I cringe!! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] When I attended one of Paisley's churches, this was the type of Pharisaical legalism that was taught. In fact, it is the OFFICIAL position of that denomination. For example, all card playing is EVIL. All consumption of alcohol is EVIL. All and any form of dancing is EVIL. etc., etc. ... ad nauseam! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/puke.gif" alt="puke" title="puke[/img] In fact, the OFFICIAL position of the denomination is that ANYTHING... yes ANYTHING can be added to the list as EVIL if so deemed by the elders of the church. Did you know, Howard, that you can and would be excommunicated from one of these churches for playing "Old Maid" with your children should you refuse to repent of this practice? Did you know that you could and would be excommunicated from one of these churches should you ever drink a glass of wine and not confess that it was a vile sin and vow to never do it again? Yes, this is factual. I had a personal conversation over these matters with one of their more respected pastors who revealed these things to me. Be very wary of the Devil's devices who would not only tempt you to violate the moral law of God but to add to it. Actually, if you were to think about this, the temptation to ADD to God's law was antecedent to the temptation to break it. (cf. Gen 3:1) [Linked Image]

In His Grace,

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]Why not ask ME? I studied in quite a number of the Martial Arts with both Japanese, Korean, and Western Sensies for over 25 years. I taught Martial Arts to State Police and local law enforcement officers, in schools and to private individuals. Without reservation, I can tell you that there is NOTHING even remotely "evil" about Martial Arts. When I hear stuff like that I cringe!!<hr></blockquote> To be fair, though, there is a lot of Eastern philosophy involved with the martial arts in general. A friend of mine is a blackbelt, and was taught all sorts of ideas that are clearly unbiblical.

I agree that there is some teaching of the Martial Arts that DOES include false teachings of several different kinds. But, the Martial Arts, by themselves, may easily be taught without having to delve into whatever the philosophy of the day is. It is just like cooking. You can cook the old fashion way or join Zen Cooking, where cooking can be one of the most sensual and transcendent activities we ever experience and where may enter the creative "flow" and gain a complete focus on the activity of cooking. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]To be fair, though, there is a lot of Eastern philosophy involved with the martial arts in general.<hr></blockquote>If by this you are simply saying that some of the beliefs or reasons given to explain how one obtains the "power" Ki etc., is often grounded in Buddhism, Taoism, etc., that is true, if you were to study from someone who was trained in the "old school". I did have several teachers who were very strict and adhered to the "Budo" tradition. However, when I was told by my Akido sensei that the power flows from "mother earth" up through my body and out my hands, I was under no obligation to accept that explanation. I realized that there was a very good physiological explanation and there was no need to embrace the animistic tradition handed down. However, what I am referring to is the physical aspect of the Martial Arts, which has no inherent "evil", as can be said with playing cards, alcohol, etc. One is not taught to summon demons or some extraterrestrial being for strength etc. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] In fact, I used the classes I taught as an opportunity to share the gospel with my students. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] In His Grace,

Joe, I agree. But most martial arts studios that I've seen advertised do teach the philosophy as well.

Pilgrim, I agree that the physical aspect is not evil. But from your own experience you know that philosophy often goes hand in hand. In my experience, most martial artists begin training as children, and at that point of development, it seems to me it would be especially prudent to avoid the vast majority of martial arts studios.

Well Kyle I can put your mind to rest, the instructor I had was a Christian he didn't teach any of the "philosophy" behind the art but instead showed how that the movements corresponded to basic physics and kinetics. There was no zen instruction.

Kyle: While I agree with, Pilgrim, Joe and Prestor that martial arts instruction doesn't necessarily involve easter philosophical instruction, I also agree with you that this is an area the adversary can and does frequently use to gain a foothold in the minds of children and youth, not to mention unbelieving adults, and it is wise to be on guard against this aspect of the activity as well, in my opinion, to warn the young in the faith and unbelievers of where it could lead the unwary. To do otherwise it seems is to ignore the apostle's warning to "be sober, be on the alert, your adversary....." In Him, Gerry

Amen to that Prestor!! [Linked Image]

Pilgrim, Some how this thread has turned from brains to brawn. When I look at all the images in your post it looks more to me like a gym than a church. If you're going to excercise martial arts how you gonna hold your song book? [Linked Image]

Wes [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"]Some how this thread has turned from brains to brawn<hr></blockquote> This raises yet another question in my young and curious mind. When we come up against someone who disagrees with our theology is karate', tai chi or the Scriptures our best defense. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] I'm just kidding everyone...please don't send hate mail, and if you do....let's step offline and I'll teach you to mess with me! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>[color:"blue"] When we come up against someone who disagrees with our theology is karate', tai chi or the Scriptures our best defense. <hr></blockquote>The HAND of the Lord shall protect you (Psalm 118:16), but don't KICK against the pricks (Acts 9:5). [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]

Martial arts is a religious practise as my friend informs me , just like yoga etc. I shall invite him here to tell you about one it day. Meanwhile I am sure there are books explaining the reality of it. I believe he calls them Satans Arts . Regardless how one feels about these arts , they have nothing to do with intellect. Denomination of which eastern religion yes , but intellect no. BTW Pilgrim, do you believe Paisley runs a Pharisaical legalist cult ? howard

Nice one Joe ! Who needs self-defense with protection like that. howard

Howard,

Your friend is clearly in error about all Martial Arts being a "religious practice". I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of present Martial Art businesses, for that is what they are here in the West, don't even teach Martial Arts, but a Hollywood version of self-defense . . . and that is really a degrading remark about "self-defense", never mind some alleged "religious practice". I began my study back in 1963.. so you count the number of years I have been associated with this subject.

I have many books in my library on the various Arts which I studied; some being authored by my own Sensei. You will not find ANYTHING of religion of them. It cannot be denied that in Japan, if you studied under any of the Masters who are continuing to teach one of the "classical" art forms, you would be exposed to mention of Buddhism or Taoism. However, this would be because the Sensei is a Buddhist or a Taoist. So, I say again, there is NOTHING inherently "religious" about the Martial Arts.

In reply to:

BTW Pilgrim, do you believe Paisley runs a Pharisaical legalist cult?

I believe Paisley runs a Pharisaical legalist sect. In fact, they are quite proud of their legalism and hand out a booklet which clearly tells you what they believe and what you must do/not do if you ever plan on being a member in any of their churches.

Oh, btw Howard, the pastor of the Free Presbyterian Church (Ireland) to which I attended for nearly a year does public baptism of adults and private baptism of infants. The reason he only does infant baptisms in private is because he doesn't want to offend the Credobaptist members.

I am NOT going to allow a discussion on Ian Paisley here. If you are wanting to begin a discussion on what is Legalism or something of that nature, then by all means feel free to do it. If you are wanting to begin a discussion concerning the doctrines and practices of the Free Presbyterian Church (Ireland), then by all means do that too.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim, I had no idea the FPC were of that ilk . In fact I find this very disturbing since pharisiees and legalists are not Christians are they? I would like to see this booklet you spoke of and then I will surely deal with it. howard

What I said above was just a joke [Linked Image]

As an ex-homicide detective and ex-military I took the martial arts strictly as self defense. Without it I would be dead and in a grave. There was 'no' mumbo-jumbo chanting or anything else that even began to appear to be cultic. Movements, techniques, and breathing was all it was.

IMHO we have to be careful to NOT categorize everything under what we may have seen in our life experiences, as life experiences are never complete. There is no way your friend could have visited every karate studio, et. al. in the world and come to the conclusion that he has. Maybe in England all karate studios do teach false beliefs with their karate lessons, but England is not the whole world.

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]I taught Martial Arts to State Police and local law enforcement officers, in schools and to private individuals.

Cool! I'm teaching a course at my school in hand-to-hand combat as self-defense.

In reply to, " but England is not the whole world "

You've just burst my bubble Joe - I was convinced it was !

howard