The Highway
Posted By: janean Rick Warren Quote - Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:23 PM
I briefly looked at the article posted by Pilgrim about Rick Warren's Purpose Driven book. Having read the book (twice!!) firsthand, the pathetic invitation to Christ was the biggest red flag to me the first time I read it. The more I explored the book myself, looking at how several passages are "twisted" to suit his own purposes it is just amazing that so many pastors and leaders are "blindly" just following along.

By the way, speaking of Rick Warren, here's an interesting quote from Larry King's CNN show from November 22:

Rick Warren says:

"And by the way, there's truth in every religion. Christians believe that there's truth in every religion. But we just believe that there's one savior. We believe we can learn truth -- I've learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth. I just believe there is one savior, Jesus Christ."
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Rick Warren Quote - Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:06 PM
Quote
"And by the way, there's truth in every religion. Christians believe that there's truth in every religion. But we just believe that there's one savior. We believe we can learn truth -- I've learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth. I just believe there is one savior, Jesus Christ."

Say what?! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Rick needs to rethink his position.


God bless,

william
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Rick Warren Quote - Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:16 PM
Rick needs to rethink a lot of things...[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Rick Warren Quote - Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:26 PM
Do you know if any of the classes over there are using this as a manual?


God bless,

william
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Rick Warren Quote - Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:34 PM
Some groups of students have gone through the book on their own. They put some flyers up around campus and did it in The Oaks. But other than that, I don't think any classes are using it.
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:58 AM
Quote
And by the way, there's truth in every religion. Christians believe that there's truth in every religion. But we just believe that there's one savior. We believe we can learn truth -- I've learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth. I just believe there is one savior, Jesus Christ.
He would have a hard time defending this statement as he does not know what "every religion" without exception teaches. However, understanding him to mean "every religion he has studied" could this be true? Is there ANY truth at all in "cults?" Islam believes in the virgin birth, that Christ will return at the judgment with 1000s of angels, that Jesus was sinless, that He worked miracles, etc. JW and Mormons assert "parts" of the Bible, as true etc. Now I have a hard enough time keeping up with learning the truth from the Scriptures and thus find very little need to study other religions "for truth," but I also desire to be fair and not "overly" criticize someone just because I disagree with the some of his views, et. al. Can members of the board unequivocally state that there is NO TRUTH at all (without exception) in other religions? Can we state we have absolutely NOTHING we can learn from other religions?

Just a thought?
Posted By: john Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:58 PM
Quote
J_Edwards said:
He would have a hard time defending this statement as he does not know what "every religion" without exception teaches. However, understanding him to mean "every religion he has studied" could this be true? Is there ANY truth at all in "cults?" Islam believes in the virgin birth, that Christ will return at the judgment with 1000s of angels, that Jesus was sinless, that He worked miracles, etc. JW and Mormons assert "parts" of the Bible, as true etc. Now I have a hard enough time keeping up with learning the truth from the Scriptures and thus find very little need to study other religions "for truth," but I also desire to be fair and not "overly" criticize someone just because I disagree with the some of his views, et. al. Can members of the board unequivocally state that there is NO TRUTH at all (without exception) in other religions? Can we state we have absolutely NOTHING we can learn from other religions?

Just a thought?

I've always felt that other religions and even cults contained varying degrees of truth. Depending on the religion/cult, the amount of truth could be miniscule or so distorted to be almost unrecognizable, but I still believe it's there somewhere. I think that's why other religions and cults can be so appealing to people. Half-truths are easier to believe than outright lies. Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. I'm not trying to defend other religions or cults here. They are definitely wrong in their beliefs, but I do think bits and pieces of the truth can be found there. So I don't think we can state that there is "NO TRUTH at all in other religions". I think we can learn things from studying other religions, but mainly through being forced back to the Bible to determine the truth in contrast to the error we studied about in their teaching. Some of the most constructive conversations I've had about Christianity have come with non-Christians/atheists because they force me back to the Bible to counter their criticisms.

I want to stress that in stating that other religions/cults have bits of the truth that I am not saying that we need to or should look to them for truth. Even though they may have grains of truth, they are still horribly in error, especially regarding things such as salvation.

Quote
Now I have a hard enough time keeping up with learning the truth from the Scriptures and thus find very little need to study other religions "for truth,

I'm in the same boat here.

John
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:28 PM
Quote
J_Edwards said:
Can we state we have absolutely NOTHING we can learn from other religions?

Just a thought?
Here's another thought! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> I am of the opinion that the statement made by Rick Warren did not have the same intent/meaning as that which you have written, i.e., that there is truth to be found in all religions. My impression is and obviously janean's is the same or similar, that Rick Warren means that we can look to all these other religions and learn some "truth"; i.e., something which Christianity either has missed or has failed to emphasize enough. I am more than familiar with this "eclectic" or "egalitarian" line of thinking due to the fact that I've had my share of teachers/professors who hold to it too. What is most evident is that these people find bits of "truth" in these non-Christian religions and then use that "truth" to redefine doctrine and/or practices and develop "new and improved" methodologies to reach some self-generated goal. In my mind, this type of error is the MOST subtle and dangerous, akin to the Serpent's deception which was used in the Garden with Eve. It looks good on the surface and even has some of those most desirable "God words" included and with smatterings of biblical quotes, "hath God not said?".

No, I believe that janean has correctly caught a significant error in that statement and I commend her for bringing it up for discussion. I don't need to "learn" from Islam to help me increase my faith or to better understand the virgin birth of Christ. I do not need to "learn" from the Mormons a better way to be a father, mother, etc. The Scriptures are my sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice. And, I have a marvelous collection of the writings of godly Christian men and women available to me in books, tapes and now the Internet. But let's not forget also the wisdom that is also given through those men whom the Spirit has ordained to office and who preach and teach God's written Word from day to day; God's means to upbuild the saints and to equip them for ministry. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:57 PM
Quote
No, I believe that janean has correctly caught a significant error in that statement and I commend her for bringing it up for discussion. I don't need to "learn" from Islam to help me increase my faith or to better understand the virgin birth of Christ. I do not need to "learn" from the Mormons a better way to be a father, mother, etc. The Scriptures are my sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice. And, I have a marvelous collection of the writings of godly Christian men and women available to me in books, tapes and now the Internet.
I don't need to either and stated so in this statement "Now I have a hard enough time keeping up with learning the truth from the Scriptures and thus find very little need to study other religions "for truth," but ...". However "need" is not the same as saying there is NO TRUTH whatsoever. What little truths cults do have are valuable as building bridges to them so they may be evangelized. It would be interesting to see the actual context of the quote ....
Posted By: Tom Here's a Thought - Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:25 PM
Can we really know what Rick Warren actually meant by that quote, with out going to the source?
We can speculate and I must say that my first inclination is to agree with Pilgrim. However, having read what J_Edwards had to say, I don't know for sure.

I do know one thing however; Rick Warren is not someone I care to read.

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Here's a Thought - Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:36 PM
Quote
Tom said:
Can we really know what Rick Warren actually meant by that quote, with out going to the source?
We can speculate . . .
Tom,

If you had read anything by Rick Warren on this subject, which you have admitted you have not, then understanding what he meant in that quote would be more than obvious. The "source" doesn't always necessitate one send an e-mail asking questions. There are plenty of Warren's writings around to be read that are more than sufficient for one to comprehend what he believes. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Here's a Thought - Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:42 PM
Well Tom I am with you here. I do not like or wish to judge before all the facts are in. Just becaue someone has been wrong before does not mean they are always wrong. Here is a copy of the interview from CNN.com. In it is "some truth" and "some error."

Rick Warren has written one of the hottest books in years. It's "The Purpose-Driven Life." He is next. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE," Rick Warren.

Long time no see, it's good to have him back. The founding pastor of the Saddle Back Church in California. Author of the number one "New York Times" best seller "The Purpose Driven Life: What on Earth am I Here For?"

Publisher's Weekly, by the way there you see it's cover, reports that "The Purpose Driven Life," get this, is the best-selling hard cover non-fiction book in American history. It's been translated into 30 languages.

Does that shock you?

REV. RICK WARREN, AUTHOR: Yes. Nobody's more surprised than me, Larry.

KING: What led to writing it?

WARREN: I just think, as I speak with people, there's a fundamental need. It's like, this is the basic question of life. Why am I here? Why am I here?

Actually it comes out in three questions. Existence, why am I alive? It comes out in purpose, what is my purpose? And it comes out in significance, does my life matter?

I think everybody at some point kind of lays their head down on the pillow and goes, what's this all about?

KING: Did it take off right away?

WARREN: Yes, it did. It actually -- we actually pre-sold half a million copies before it hit the market.

KING: Was it originally considered the Christian book sales?

WARREN: Yes, that's a big surprise too, is that -- is I -- you know, I'm a pastor. And so I thought I was writing for church members, Christians, things like that.

This book has enormous cross-over and everybody's reading it.

KING: Like the country hit that becomes pop.

WARREN: Yes, exactly. Like those rock or pop or something like that.

KING: Does that mean that a Jew, a Muslim, an agnostic, an atheist could benefit from this book?

WARREN: If that's the question, sure. Anybody can benefit from it. In fact, the other day, I heard about a story of a lady who was at a little league, she was Jewish and the lady sitting next to her was Muslim. The Jewish lady was reading "Purpose Driven Life," and the other lady next to her said, what are you reading? She said, I'm reading "Purpose Driven Life," She said, I'd like to read it to. She said, well, take mine, I'll get another copy. And I thought, OK, here's a Christian pastor writing a book that a Jewish lady is passing on to a Muslim lady. OK.

KING: It is not, you have said, a how-to book this, right. What is it?

WARREN: Well, it's not self-help. Self-help...

KING: It's lessons, though.

WARREN: It is lessons. It's helpful. The bottom line, if I were to hold up an invention and I were to say, what's the purpose of this? You'd never seen it before. You wouldn't know what its purpose is. The only way you'd know the purpose is to either ask the inventor, who made it, the creator or you read an owner's manual. And I think the same thing's true with us. I think everybody wants to know their purpose in life. If you read most self-help books they fundamentally will say things like, make up your purpose. Figure out your purpose. Look for your purpose. And the big one is, look within. It's kind of like, trust the force, Luke. You know, look within. When I looked within, I didn't like what I saw. You know, I just got confused. The truth is, I didn't create me, so I can't tell me what my purpose is.

KING: How do you know who created you?

WARREN: Well, I believe God created me. KING: You believe that. How do you know it?

WARREN: Well, you know, I have to say that I first accepted it on faith. And then I went through a doubting period where I really doubted, do I really believe in God? And then now, first my own personal relationship, the experiences I've had, and then seeing it happen in literally tens of thousands of other lives.

KING: Why do you believe that God is a Christian God?

Why isn't he a Jimmy God (ph) or Muslim God or Jewish God or just God?

WARREN: Well, the question, the bottom line is this -- every religion is mutually exclusive. The problem today, Larry, is not unbelief. The problem is today everyone wants to believe everything. They want to believe it all. I want to believe in reincarnation and heaven. Those are mutually exclusive things. I want to believe in Elvis, and I want to believe in Jesus, those are mutually exclusive. And the truth is, it is all matter of faith. At some point you have to step.

KING: There's a leap.

WARREN: There is a leap of faith. And I just wish somebody had told me when I was younger that I could have doubts and still believe. This is a big deal. That I didn't have to have all my doubts resolved to believe. I have to say there's a story in the Bible where Jesus is walking down the street, and a guy comes up to him, he's got a daughter who's sick. And Jesus goes -- he goes, I need you to heal my daughter. And Jesus said, do you believe I can heal her? And he goes, I want to believe. Help me with my doubt. And Jesus goes, that's good enough, and he heals his girl. So, to even say to God, OK, God I want to believe. You know what, I've been a pastor now, Larry, for 25 years. There's still things in the bible I can't figure out. I look at them and go, why in the world did God do that? You know, it doesn't make sense.

KING: The question (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Why do you believe that bible, why not that bible or that bible?

WARREN: Well, first, there are historical evidences for the text. The bible itself is the most historically attested book in history. This is true. You can take this in any encyclopedia. For instance, you know, we base a lot of our things -- we read Shakespeare today. Did you know that there's not a single original manuscript of Shakespeare in exist, not one. They're all copies of copies of copies, same thing with Plato, same thing with Socrates. But when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1948, they found that the text that we had been using and the text they found in the Dead Sea Scrolls were a thousand years older, and they were identical. And so I believe in that. I believe it because it's textually -- there's historical records. Like when the bible says there was a Jericho, well, they find it.

KING: Let me get a break, then we'll find out what to do with the "Purpose Driven Life." How you can attain it. We'll be right back with Rick Warren on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Rick Warren, who worked with Billy Graham this weekend.

WARREN: Yeah...

KING: What did you do?

WARREN: An amazing thing. He's been in the Rose Bowl for four days, about 350,000 people came out to see him.

KING: I had a lovely letter from him. He's a great guy.

WARREN: Oh, he's -- you know, it just shows, Larry, people are still -- there's a hunger for meaning. There's a hunger for meaning in our nation. And I saw people of all religious backgrounds and no religious backgrounds coming, filling that stadium.

KING: What did you do?

WARREN: Well, I just helped behind the scenes. Pretty much just helped behind the scenes. Billy Graham's been a mentor for me for a long time. He's taught me a lot. He would be one of my spiritual fathers. Peter Drucker (ph) is a mentor, and Billy Graham has been a mentor, both of them to me for years.

And I just wanted to be there at this historic time and help him out.

KING: All right, you have -- there are some critics of you.

WARREN: Sure.

KING: One accused you of commercializing Christianity. "Time" magazine article quoted fundamental Bible church pastor Dennis Costello (ph) who said, "the purpose-driven ministry is a marketing strategy. We believe the Bible tells us to present the word of God without packaging it for contemporary cultural context."

WARREN: Yeah, yeah.

KING: How do you respond to that?

WARREN: Well, first place, I don't even know this church. I mean, you know, you can find a critic anywhere. But I liked what "The New York Times" said about me. It said, you know, marketers create a message in order to market. Warren creates tools in order to create a message, in order to propel a message. And that's it.

If you talked about getting the message out, I'm going to use every way possible. Because I really do believe that we have a positive message. There's a lot of negativity in the world. I mean, we've been through this election, the nation's divided. And I just think that the positive message that you're not an accident. I don't believe anybody's an accident. I believe that everything on this Earth has a purpose. Every rock, every tree, and every human being. If your heart's beating, you've got a purpose.

Now, there may be accidental parents. OK? But I don't think there are accidental kids. I think that there is a God. And I think that that God even takes into account our mistakes, our errors.

KING: Is he judging you too?

WARREN: Even our sins. God sets the rules. But God also forgives. And that's what the whole good news is about. The good news is that heaven is a perfect place. And that means only perfect people get to go there. Well, I stopped batting 1,000 a long time ago. Like, year one.

KING: That means nobody's there.

WARREN: Nobody's going to make it on their own effort. It's kind of like -- a lot of people think God grades on a curve. That if, you know, your good things on this side, and your bad things -- well, you know, you kind of -- but the truth is, God is perfect. And if you've got the Titanic and you got a criminal and you've got Mother Teresa, they're both going to sink with it, because the Titanic's sinking. And the human predicament is nobody's perfect. Not me, not you, not the pope.

So God sent a savior to be perfect for us. I tell a story of a guy who took his three kids to a carnival for his birthday, took his son and three sons -- three kids. And at every carnival ride, he'd give his son a ticket, and he'd give his three friends a ticket. And he'd go to the next ride, give his son a ticket, give his three friends a ticket.

On about the fourth little ride, he looks down and he sees a fourth hand, a little kid out there he's never seen before. He said, "who are you?" And the guy goes, "I'm your son's new friend." And he said, "this kid said that if I was his friend, his dad would give me a ticket."

And I was actually in China, had a state dinner in Tiananmen Square in Peoples' Hall, and was there with a well-known communist official who has been in the government for over 50 years. And I was telling this story to him. And I said, you know -- he'd told me, he said, he had a brain tumor and he was dying of cancer.

And I said, you know, my father is dying of cancer right now. He's passed away now, he said, but he's not afraid to die, because he knows he's made his sense. He got his ticket. I said, God has a ticket for you, you heavenly father's ticket for you. You can't buy it. You can't earn it. You can't pay for it. The only way you get it is by being a friend of his son. He said, "I want one of those tickets," by the way, he said, "I want one of those tickets." And he became a believer.

KING: Let's talk about the -- are you concerned about the evangelical right, which is very politically motivated?

WARREN: Yeah.

KING: One example we might give of it, Bob Jones' letter to President Bush after the election. "God has graciously granted America, though she doesn't deserve it, a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ." Isn't that bad for the nation?

WARREN: Yeah, there's a lot of things that are said in the name of Christianity, not just in the past but right now, that I'd like to totally disavow. And I would just say, that's not me.

In the first place, a lot of the people don't understand, there's a difference between the religious right and evangelicals. And between evangelicals and main-line believers and Catholics. In this election, Catholics and evangelicals found that they had a lot more in common than not in common. And a lot of those are the things about, they don't want the society going vulgarized, you know, where it's getting coarser and coarser.

But evangelicals, the word evangelical comes from the Greek word that means good news. That's what it means. So when you hear bad news, that's not really evangelical. Good news is -- it comes from uvengelia (ph), the Greek word means good news.

Evangelicals basically believe three things. They believe the Bible is the word of God. They believe that Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be, that he was the son of God, and that he proved it by being raised from the dead. And they believe that it is our job to spread the good news to other people.

Now, we do not believe in coercion. We do believe in persuasion. And that's why I'm a pastor. In other words, I believe that everybody ought to hear the good news, that your past can be forgiven, God has a purpose for living, and you can have a home in heaven. That's good news.

KING: You believe in sin?

WARREN: Of course I do. I do it all the time.

KING: Is a gay person a sinner?

WARREN: I think a gay person is a sinner just like I'm a sinner. I don't think...

KING: No different from your sin?

WARREN: Oh, I think the worst sin is pride. In fact, the Bible says it. The Bible says that pride is the worst sin. It is, as the Bible says, it's the sin that got Satan kicked out of heaven. It's the sin that caused Nebuchadnezzar to lose his kingdom, and King Herod and a bunch of others. Pride goes before destruction.

Because pride is basically saying, I. I'm in charge. The middle letter of pride is I, and the middle letter of sin is I. And the bottom line is, you know, we've been seeing this stuff about the basketball, you know, all that thing...

KING: I wanted to ask you about that.

WARREN: OK, well, one of the things about that is we're in a narcissistic culture, that basically says, it's all about me. I need to do what I want to do, I want to have what I want to have, I want to be what I want to be. It's very self-centered culture. And that's why I think one of the things about the took that took off, it's kind of a slap in the face, because the first line of the book says, "it's not about you."

Now, I don't know a self-help book in the world that starts with, "it's not about you." But every other book on self-help will basically say, it's all about you. It's all about your needs, your dreams, your desires.

And kids who are acting out like in these brawls and stuff like that, they're just portraying the value of our society, which says, I have to think of me first.

KING: Is organized religion part of the problem?

WARREN: Well, it certainly can be. I think anything organized can get -- at our church, we have disorganized religion. I'm not that organized.

But a lot of things, again, are done in the name of religion...

KING: You're damn right.

WARREN: ... that are not -- have -- don't have anything to do with Jesus Christ. OK? And don't have anything to do with faith, or forgiveness, or all these other things in life.

You know, everybody's life is driven by something. That's why I called this book "The Purpose-Driven Life." Some people are driven by fear. You know people like this. They are driven by the opinions of others. They live for the expectations of their parent, or husband, or boyfriend, or something like that.

Some people are driven by worry. They're driven by guilt. They're driven by shame. Some people are driven by loneliness. And I don't think God wants any of our lives to be driven by these things. I think the bottom line is that we were put on Earth for a purpose.

Part of that purpose is to know God, and then part of that purpose is to help other people.

KING: We're going to take a break and come back, take some calls for Rick Warren. The book, "The Purpose-Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here For?" -- publisher's weekly reports, it's the best-selling hard-cover non-fiction book in American history. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Before we take some calls for Rick Warren, last time he was with us was when Pat Boone was on talking about praying for his grandson.

WARREN: For Ryan Corbin, yes. He's a member of my church.

KING: Give me an update.

WARREN: Actually, Ryan is going to get to come home for Thanksgiving. And I'm happy to announce he'll be home for Christmas too. He's been in a special facility, working on physical therapy. He's making progress. I talked to Pat and Shirley yesterday, actually saw them at the Billy Graham Crusade. And they were giving me an update. And I just would like to thank all of the viewers who said their prayers and sent their wishes and condolences or encouragement, notes, to the Corbins and to the Boones.

KING: Will he ever be all right, all right?

WARREN: You know, I don't know. I don't know, Larry. That's our desire. That's our hope. But again, it goes back to this: There is a purpose in everything. Even behind our pain, there is a purpose. And God's purpose for our life is always greater than the pain we go through.

One of the things that happens is, I don't believe God ever wastes a hurt. That God doesn't create bad. OK? I don't think God created -- caused Ryan's problem at all. I think we live in a fallen world where we make choices, and most of the problems I bring on myself. They're not God's. God didn't cause them.

KING: What about a typhoon?

WARREN: Well, there are natural disasters, there is no doubt about that.

KING: It has to be God, then.

WARREN: Well, God set up the universe that creates both light and dark. I mean, we could have all sunshine, but all sunshine and no rain makes a desert. And so there has to be storms. And so there have to be different things.

And yes, people get hurt. And you know what, I don't know that there's an answer to the why question. That's the one that we all ask. OK? When something happens like a typhoon or a hurricane, why did this happen? Some of those things I think it's kind of like an ant trying to understand the Internet. I don't have the brain capacity to understand why God does the things he does.

KING: Isn't it though a cop-out? To say -- it's easy to say, I believe in God, I firmly believe he is my lord, he is my master, I believe -- and when a typhoon comes out, it's too -- it's beyond me. Well, if that's beyond you, why can you believe in him?

WARREN: Well, I don't think -- that's a great question, by the way. I don't think it's a cop-out to say, I believe that God is in control in that he has also given us free will. The first question I was asked after 9/11 was, OK, where was God? And my answer, where was God when all this happened? He's where he's always been -- and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring. It was a great opportunity. Even good came out of that terrible, terrible tragedy, in that there was heroism, and character grew.

KING: Does it annoy you that the people flying the plane also believed in him?

WARREN: Well, yeah, and obviously, I don't believe in that God. In fact, a lot of times people say...

KING: But they did.

WARREN: Yeah. A lot of times people say to me, well, I don't believe in God. And whenever I hear that, I always have two immediate questions. First, it doesn't shock me. OK? My first question is, OK, tell me the kind of God you don't believe in. Because I may not believe in him either. And they'll say, well, I don't believe in a God who, you know, sins, da da da. And I say, well, I don't either.

Then the second question I ask is, what interests me is not why you don't -- that you don't believe in God, but why you don't believe in God? And I'll often ask -- I was just with a university student from Brazil recently. And he said, I don't believe in God. And I said, OK. You know, that's, you know, we're all basing our life on something.

But let me ask you this. I said, would you have to make changes in your lifestyle if you believed in the God of the Bible that Jewish people and Christians worship, Jehova God? Would you have to make some lifestyle changes? He said, yeah. I said, well, then really the question is not, do you believe in God, but are you willing to make the changes?

KING: Let's take a call. Victoria, British Columbia, for Rick Warren, hello.

CALLER: Hello, good evening. Mr. -- Reverend Warren, I'm enjoying your show. If you live your life in kindness and goodness and in consideration -- I'm an agnostic, by the way, not an atheist, agnostic -- and you know when you're being good and you know when you're being bad, why do you need to recognize a book that I think was written by men thousands of years ago to control? But that's beside the point. I really would like to hear your opinion on...

WARREN: That's a great question. Let me ask you a question. What do you do -- you said you know when you're doing right and you know when you're doing wrong. Is that what you said?

CALLER: Yes.

WARREN: OK, let me ask you, what do you do with your guilt when you know you're doing wrong? CALLER: If I really know that -- if I've been really bad to somebody, I will actually try and go back and apologize to them. Unless I'm in a car, of course, which is a little difficult when you get angry with somebody. I try not to judge. But I always -- I like to treat others as I want to be treated myself.

WARREN: Yeah, that's a...

CALLER: I was brought up with my mother...

KING: How about not being judgmental?

WARREN: Yeah. Well, obviously, Jesus said, judge not lest you be judged. And of course, you know, Larry, it's kind of like on a continuum. Let's say Hitler is at a zero, and Mother Teresa is at 100. OK? Where am I going to put myself? OK, I might put myself, OK, I'm at a 20. OK? I'm not as good as some people. In fact, I am certain there are a lot of people who are better than me. You know, more moral, or more kind, more loving than I am. And there are a lot of people who are worse than me, I would say, OK?

But as it goes back to -- I don't believe God grades on a curve. It's like the bottom line is, even Mother Teresa has done things wrong. And so we all need a savior.

KING: All you need is one law, right, do unto others? You don't need another law.

WARREN: Jesus summarized -- this is a good question. Jesus -- a guy came to Jesus one time and said, what's the most important commandment? And he said, OK, I'm going to summarize the whole thing in two sentences. Here's the whole Bible. Old Testament, New Testament. All the law and the prophets, this is cliff notes on the Bible. Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Now, that's it. That's what Jesus said. Which is, OK, first I've got to get to know and love God, and second, I've got to get to know and love other people. If I do that, you've got it made.

KING: Russell Springs -- Russell Springs, Kentucky, hello.

CALLER: Yes, first of all, I would just like to say that Rick, you had an outstanding book. And my question to you is, are you going to write another one? And if so, when?

WARREN: $60,000 question.

KING: "Purpose-Driven Life II."

WARREN: I am going to write another book. I'm not going to write it this year. It's actually going to be -- well, this book is on what on Earth are we here for? This next book is going to be on asking -- dealing with the question, what are you doing with what you've been given? Because I believe that we all fundamentally -- everything we have is a gift. I believe, because I believe in God, I believe that everything I have -- my life is a gift.

KING: It's very Eastern philosophy.

WARREN: It's all a gift. And so we're stewards. We're stewards.

And by the way, there's truth in every religion. Christians believe that there's truth in every religion. But we just believe that there's one savior. We believe we can learn truth -- I've learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth. I just believe there is one savior, Jesus Christ.

KING: We'll be back with more of Rick Warren. The book is "The Purpose-Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here For?" More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with extraordinary, Rick Warren. Toronto, hello.

CALLER: Yes, I would like to ask the reverend if he believes that non-Christians can get into heaven and be with God when they die.

WARREN: My question would be this, who gets to make the rules?

Does god have a right to decide who gets into his place?

And I would say, my opinion really doesn't matter. I would say this, and I would say this humbly. Jesus said this -- he said, I am the way and the truth and the life. And nobody comes to the father except through me. Now, you know what, that's a pretty radical statement when you think about it.

KING: A little pompous too.

WARREN: It is if it's not true. The bottom line is, I'm betting my life on that verse. See this, Larry, is the fundamental issue.

KING: So, what you're saying the jew is not going to heaven?

WARREN: I'm saying nobody's going to heaven, except people who go to heaven God's way. And I don't get to make the rules. I don't go to heaven, you don't go to heaven.

KING: What if John leads a perfect life. He adopts the golden rule all the days of his life. Except he doesn't accept Christ.

WARREN: First, I object to the premise. He can't lead a perfect life.

KING: He leads a 99 percent. Phil, he's a 30 percent life, except he believes in Christ.

WARREN: And I live a 10 percent life.

KING: Phil goes to heaven and John doesn't, under those rules? Bad rule then.

WARREN: The rule is grace. You have to do the almost impossible to go to hell. You have to reject the love of Jesus Christ.

And why would anybody reject that?

KING: Why is it so crowded down there?

WARREN: Why would anybody reject the love of Jesus? He's done everything possible. You saw the Mel Gibson movie. Jesus stretches out his hands out on the cross, I love you this much. It's like, I'm doing everything possible. I'm doing everything possible so that you don't have to go to hell. So that you don't have to depend on your own efforts. Because it is my grace. The message of the evangelical, the message of the bible is not judgment. The message is grace. Is that, I don't deserve it, but I get to go if I trust him.

KING: New Market, Ontario, last call. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, Reverend Warren. I just wanted to ask what inspired you to write the book, and how long did it take you to write it?

WARREN: Well, I'd have to say, God and the needs of people inspired me to write the book. It took me about seven months. And between December of 19 -- excuse me 2001 and July of 2002, I spent 12 hours a day in a little room writing. I'd get up at about 4:30 in the morning and work to 5:00 the next day. And I only spoke twice in my church, I did Christmas and Easter, and really focused on the book.

KING: Did you have a publisher?

WARREN: Yes. Yes, I did.

KING: You had that set before?

WARREN: Had it all set. Because I'd written books before. I wrote a book called "The Purpose Driven Church," which was well known among pastors. It sold a million copies.

KING: This one certainly...

WARREN: This went international. Thank you, Larry. You're great.

KING: Rick Warren, the founding pastor, Saddle Back Church, that's in Orange County. Finally, a thought -- our thoughts and prayers with the great Doris Day on the passing of her Terry Melcher. He lost a long battle with cancer on Friday at age 62. He was a force in music since the early 1960s, recording surf rock hits with the Ripcords. Producing the folk rock classics, "Turn, Turn, Turn" and "Mr. Tambourine Man" by the Byrds. And co-writing the Beach Boy's last no. 1 hit, "Cocomo," in the late '80s. He produced TV series for his mom and he oversaw businesses and charities for her, including the Doris Day Animal Foundation. Where donations are being accepted in Terry Melcher's name. Back in a moment to talk about tomorrow night. We'll miss you Terry. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Posted By: Tom Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:02 AM
J_Edwards

Thanks for that.
I thought you might enjoy reading something.
http://www.michaelspencer.us/archives/2004/08/000090.html

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:15 AM
Joe,

Thanks for supplying that transcript as it goes to indisputably prove my point. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
Posted By: Tom Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:28 AM
Pilgrim

Though I tend to agree with you, the connotations of that are enormous.
So enormous, that I believe it puts into question whether or not he even believes that truth is objective.
Therefore, although I don't want to get into this myself, if I did I would at least clarify this matter with either him, or his staff about his quote.
Is that too much to ask?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:02 AM
Tom,

Again, IF you were to familiarize yourself with Warren's writings/teachings, you would conclude that it would be unnecessary to contact the man or his ministry to get a reply to such a question. Come on now, how many times have you sent off e-mails asking doctrinal questions and/or for clarification about a statement someone made, e.g., Billy Graham, only to get in return some generic response which in many cases is irrelevant to the question asked? So, in most instances, such questions never really get answered and further more often than not, cloud the matter even more. After reading the Larry King transcript of his guest Rick Warren, you are not fully convinced that this man is so fraught with errors that trying to clarify this one issue would be an exercise in futility, I doubt anything I or even Rick Warren himself would satisfy you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
Posted By: gotribe Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:16 PM
Quote
The first question I was asked after 9/11 was, OK, where was God? And my answer, where was God when all this happened? He's where he's always been -- and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring. It was a great opportunity. Even good came out of that terrible, terrible tragedy, in that there was heroism, and character grew.

God, where He has always been in the hearts of the people who care!?!

Rick Warren's God is very small to be defined by and contained in "the people." Not even HIS people. Even the good he says came out of 911 has nothing to do with our REAL PURPOSE--to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

This makes me sad, it makes me grieve for those who have settled for this god who can only be revealed in and through sinful men instead of our transcendant, majestic, wise, all powerful Holy God!
Posted By: neicey Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:25 PM
Quote
This makes me sad, it makes me grieve for those who have settled for this god who can only be revealed in and through sinful men instead of our transcendant, majestic, wise, all powerful Holy God!

So if you would not mind, please finish answering the question, that was given to Rick.

neicey
Posted By: gotribe Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:16 PM
God was where He has always been. On His throne, Sovereignly upholding and sustaining His creation. Bringing to pass all that He, in His wisdom and power, has ordained.
Posted By: neicey Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:53 PM
Thanks gotribe <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I understand what your saying but, this is what Rick said.
(and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring.)
Now I believe all good that is done by people is from God, it does not matter if they are born again or not, for God to use them, for what ever reason he has. So I get what Rick is saying. if he would have said GOD ordained 911,then I think maybe all hell would break loose because of people not understanding GOD is in control of all things.So he then would not be a freewiller.
Did I put that together right ? anybody can respond <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

neicey
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:55 PM
Quote
neicey said:
Thanks gotribe <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I understand what your saying but, this is what Rick said. (and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring.)
neicey,

I am going to have to respond by saying that I STRONGLY disagree with your assessment, i.e., that what Kim said in regard to where God was during 911 and what Rick Warren said are the same or even remotely similar. There is SOoooooooo much wrong (unbiblical) with Warren's statement that it would take me far too long to respond to all of it. But let me just address a couple of the more obvious things:

(1) God does not dwell in the hearts of unbelievers; in Warren's estimation, He dwells in the hearts of those who do what is perceived as "good", e.g., the rescue workers, etc. First, no man does good!! Second, God only dwells in the hearts of those who have been made alive by the Holy Spirit, Who having created a new nature which is fit for His presence, dwells therein; that person having been reconciled to God through faith in Christ. That God uses wicked men, women and children to accomplish His purpose on earth to His ultimate glory and for the good of His own, the Church is decidedly not the same thing as "being in the hearts" of all those who do acts of compassion to their fellow man. The God of the Bible is a sovereign King Who presently rules all of His creation in an objective manner, including the taking of lives in what we as humans call "tragedies". (cf. Isa 45:7)

(2) Here is a perfect example of what happens when a person believes that they can "learn truth" from all the other religions. What Warren said and thus is teaching, at least in part, a part that has been co-mingled with historic Christianity, is the "god" embraced by such Liberals as Friedrich Schleiermacher. To Schleiermacher, religion was "a sense of community", it is not the creation of ecclesiastical institutions and dogma; rather, it is their creator. It emerges out of a prior community and is rooted in a dimension of self-consciousness that cannot be expunged from the nature that is fully human. Put more simply, "god" is when people come together for a singular purpose for the betterment of their fellow man. The point here is that Rick Warren's "religion" is an admixture of various "truth" which he has found in "all religions".

I cannot find a "better" definition and/or understanding of true faith in sources other than the inspired Scriptures. But for people like Warren, they seem to think that although the Bible is "sufficient" to a degree, other religions are able to add to one's understanding of such things as faith which are helpful in that they can "expand upon" that which the Bible teaches. It's like going to a Bible study where the infamous question is asked of those sitting around in a circle, "What does this text mean to you?". You are then encouraged to listen to each person's response and then by combining all that people have said, you come to a "fuller/better" understanding of what the passage means compared to only relying upon your own "feelings" about what the text says. There is no OBJECTIVITY....... no OBJECTIVE truth which one is to discover and submit to. It all becomes a matter of what one "feels" the text means, i.e., how the text "moves you", etc.... which again comes right out of the repository teachings of neo-Orthodoxy, e.g., Karl Barth, &co.

The most dangerous teachings a Christian can be confronted with are those that contain both truth and error, because they do have an appearance of verity to them. And most always, what is included in such teachings is the warning, "Be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater." Which is another one of Satan's deceptions, i.e., allow error to dwell alongside of truth since YOU cannot be absolutely sure that error is error or even that what you think is truth is really truth. Doubt is a most valuable weapon used by the Evil One, "Yea, hath God said . . .?"

In His Grace,
Posted By: gotribe Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:42 PM
Hi Neicy,

Pilgrim answered you much better than I can, but I would like to add one thing. Rick Warren starts in the wrong place. He starts with man instead of God. In trying to make sense of tragedy, he looks first to the deeds of men, as if God is somehow excused for His having allowed this tragedy to happen because of the good deeds that man has done in response. Do you see how backward that is?
Posted By: janean Re: It's Postmoderism error - Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:14 PM
Yes I totally agree with you Pilgrim and your response to Tom. All one has to do is read his material, and the biblical, discerning Christian will see for themself what I've seen (and also maybe with a little help from critiques also). And as far as Tom's comment about wondering if Rick Warren really beleives in the objective Truth, that is exactly one of the things I've suspected. And what I see is that it's the postmodern thinking that I've seen creep right into my church. And along with it is a low standard of the Word of God - and this is VERY evident with Rick Warren.

I know many here have not bothered to read Rick Warren. I wouldn't either, if I didn't know anyone else that were reading it and I weren't right in the thick of it with the church I'm in. But unfortunately I'm right in the thick of it and know many neighbors and relatives that have read the book and gone through the 40 days and our church did it. On a positive note, after going through the program, some of our leaders saw some red flags, ie. like the pathetic invitation to Christ and no dramatic change that I think some expected as a result. And there's a video too that goes with the 40 day program. And believe it or not the "invitation" for a person to receive Christ is actually WORSE in the tape than the book!!!! That's what I remember. And I did make a comment and so did my husband in our group about it.

Over the last several months I have read several critiques of Rick Warren's Purpose book. One of the most interesting one I found was by Don Venoit of MidWest Christian Outreach (an apologetics ministry in the Chicagoland area). Unfortunately the article is not on line to put here for you, but he analyzed just this one part from Rick Warren's book and it was so eye opening to me to the "twisting" of ideas from God's Word. From what I know of some of you here and your wonderful background of knowledge from Scripture I bet you see the problems too with this:

from page 9 and 10 of The Purpose Driven Life=

"YOUR NEXT 40 DAYS

Today the average life span is 25,550 days. That's how long you will live if you are typical. Don't you think it would be a wise use of time to set aside 40 of those days to figure out what God wants you to do with the rest of them?
The Bible is clear that God considers 40 days a spiritually significant time period. Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days:

-Noah's life was transformed by 40 days of rain.
-Moses was transformed by 40 days on Mount Sinai.
-The spies were transformed by 40 days in the Promised Land.
-David was transformed by Goliath's 40-day challenge.
-Elijah was transformed when God gave him 40 days of strength from a single meal.
-The entire city of Ninevah was transformed when God gave the people 40 days to change.
-Jesus was empowered by 40 days in the wilderness.
-The disciples were transformed by 40 days with Jesus after his resurrection.

The next 40 days will transform your life." (This section is followed by about 2 more paragraphs of more hype of how the 40 days and his book will transform and change your life)
Posted By: Anonymous Re: It's Postmoderism error - Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 PM
...[Linked Image]...oie...
Posted By: neicey Re: Here's a Thought - Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:37 PM
Thanks Pilgrim,
I must have said something not in the right way, I didnot mean to say they were the same,but that GOD was there with then from the start to the end.I did not mean to limit GOD to only the rescue workers.I said something about Rick and how he would not give more to GOD in 911, because he is of freewill thinking. If he went on to say more he would have had a lot of explaining to do,about how GOD was in control of all 911 to the people who want to believe that they make the decision for Christ.
Rick wanted to appeal to the people,you know get there mind and emotions stirring, so they would be interested in his book.Pilgrim I was thinking scripture really,Rick said he does not like pride, then my mind went to moses in numbers 20 I believe it is anyway, about how moses did not speak of GOD to the people but hit the rock twice,more pride peaking its ugly head there to.

neicey
Posted By: Tom Re: Rick Warren Quote - Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:27 PM
For anyone interested, a while back Modern Reformation interviewed Rick Warren, that interview can be found here:
http://www.christianity.com/partner/Arti...1694210,00.html

Tom
Posted By: gnarley Re: Rick Warren Quote - Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:22 AM
One of the problems that I had with the book was the massive versions of the bible used. I get the gut feeling that when so many varied "versions" are necessary to teach a truth, they are being used to support a presupposition, rather than gaining one from reading all the references in a good, recognized accurate translation to begin with
Posted By: Tom Re: Rick Warren Quote - Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:26 AM
gnarley

A very good point, I believe one of the versions (or should I say perversions?) is called 'The Message'.
I was given 'The Message' and as I read it I can't understand how a Reformed Christian could give it a thumbs up, which unfortunately there are Reformed Christians that do.
Compare the writing of 'The Message' with a literal translation and at places you get a different meaning altogether. Maybe that is because Eugene Peterson (the author of 'The Message') claims to be a Reformed Christian?
But then again Rick Warren claims to believe in the 5 Solas, so what does that say? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Rick Warren Quote - Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:38 AM
Quote
Tom said:
But then again Rick Warren claims to believe in the 5 Solas, so what does that say? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
That one could conclude that his definition of "believe in" is a far different thing than that which I have. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tom PS - Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:47 AM
In case anyone is interested in why I posted the link to MR's interview of Rick Warren. It was because I thought it was an interesting interview. However, on reflection I have to say that although Rick Warren claimed to believe in things like the 5 Solas. If he actually did, he wouldn't have written the Purpose Driven books.
Those books are in direct conflict with what he said in the interview.
I have to conclude then that the interview made his teaching that much more dangerous. His teaching has caused some people of Reformed persuasion to defend him.

Tom
Posted By: Anonymous Re: PS - Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:29 AM
I read it and something similar crossed my mind. It also seems like he's playing on both sides of things. On the secular TV show, he was pretty politically correct and ecumenical and in the MR interview, he seemed to not be that way really at all.

It raised questions too in my head about how deeply he teaches his people. I also thought it interesting that he said he's gone through Romans twice in a couple years. Piper has been working through Romans for a LONG time with his people.

Warren is an interesting character.
Posted By: Henry Re: PS - Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:17 AM
That's a good point. We know a pastor out here, likely one of the best in the area, who preached expositionally through Romans- and I think it took him about 8 months. It's quite sad.
Posted By: Anonymous Romans - Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:19 AM
I think I had a professor like that in college...
That IS sad!!! [that it took 8 months] Especially if Rick did it twice in 2 years--that would come out to be 12 months each time! hahaha
It's too bad he didn't realize that there were more books than that... (maybe he got a "single book copy" *you know--those ones with just one book?* and didn't realize that wasn't all there was!?!--or...maybe his dog got ahold of his full size Bible *with OT included!--lol* and he just had to make do for a few seasons without the rest...
actually, that's more funny than sad
I would think that if he was one of the best in the area that he could at least get 2 full books in a year, especially considering that the "worst" can do 3! (I've heard urban legend that one preacher, long ago, actually did 52 books in one year! But I think he was excommunicated... lol)
-Jonathan
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:59 AM
Quote
janean said:
"And by the way, there's truth in every religion. Christians believe that there's truth in every religion. But we just believe that there's one savior. We believe we can learn truth -- I've learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth. I just believe there is one savior, Jesus Christ."
To everyone: I must ask if any of you spend anything close to the amount of time that Rick does in Evangelism!
to Janean: Did you mistakenly think that the book was an "invitation" (By the way, I can't imagine a much better book to introduce the Gosple and "Invite" anyone to search out the Scriptures for themselves! Oh--I hope you weren't expecting him to tell people what to believe and jam legalism down their throats! I think he believes in free will and the power of the Holy Spirit to do His job. I don't think Rick gets confused like that and try to do God's job!
Now for the quote- It was obvious to me , that Rick was saying, yes, there are truths in other religions (it would be ignorant would deny that) For anyone to put words in his mouth to say that he accepts those religions categorically, or that means that ALL is truth would be very foolish. (To say something contains truth does NOT mean that it IS truth, as a whole) Think of if someone who says the Bible contains the word of God--would we not say It is the Word of God!?! Obvious difference. (thus his "portion" emphasis) And as he pointed out the problem lies in what they omit or are lacking-- The Savior!
If you truly search for the truth, you will realize that there is no "universalist" teachings here. If you are not just looking for an argument or for someone to belittle, you will know that this is just plain silly.
God and His Message is much bigger than any of our hare-brained ideas of how things should be!
To whom it may concern: Speaking of "the Message", a self proclaimed paraphrase/study Bible, anyone would be hard-pressed to genuinely fault it. It has "leviathan" and "behemoth" translated correct, a simple litmus test that the CEV, NLT, Amplified and others fail miserably. (You'd have to throw out ALL commentary Bibles then, no matter what translation! And all verisions like NASB, NIV would be kaput because of the errant footnotes) But fortunately, God is much bigger than the box we try to put Him in! And His Word will NEVER return void. He is much more omnipotent than anyone who would try to change the Message. That's why the JW's and Morons have failed so miserably. (When any major difference, like "the word was A god" comes along it is obvious and easily spotted, like a counterfeit bill) God's Word will remain forever. The very fact that He told the disciples to quit badmouthing the ones who were doing work in His name should be enough to silence us. We are the true villains if we continue to persecute our fellow Brothers in Christ. And yes the work of God evident in His people is OBVIOUSLY talking about those who are Christians. Sheesh! Does it have to be in paint by number and small words for you to get it? I'm appalled at the remarks on here and I hope that you too will be convicted when you finally comprehend why so many don't want to be associated w/ the name "christian" when they hear this kind of nonsense going on--of attacking each other, etc. Let's show some LOVE, exhortaion and Admonition. Build one another up! Instead of tearing down! Build the Kingdom!
Am I missing someting here? Are there not much more important things we could be doing to glorify God and worship him with our lives (like Rick does) instead of nitpicking and playing semantics games?! Will we not be held accoutable by our Lord for attacking the work of His faithful? A kingdom divided against itself will fall.
Let's ALL be obedient and help advance His Kingdom!!!

(WORST case scenario-- Rick is like one of these guys)

Mark 9:38-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)



38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.


39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


40For he that is not against us is on our part.

Which would shut up even the toughest critic.
But Rick's really much more like Paul, Peter and Moses, etc. He also reminds me of GW (George Bush II) a little in that he isn't always the most eloquent. He is not comfortable at public speaking nor a natural pro at it. In fact he prefers not to. But he has been obedient to God. He does have a few slips of the tongue, etc. You need to be at least as Gracious as God, and forgive his few minor errors. And look at the Big Picture. Let's not get sidetracked. Or cause anyone to stumble. Or give any reason to say "I don't want to be one of those!" Enough Said.
-Jonathan Ditmer

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Posted By: CovenantInBlood Re: Rick Warren Quote - Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:47 PM
Quote
To everyone: I must ask if any of you spend anything close to the amount of time that Rick does in Evangelism!

I imagine even those here who spend the least amount of time evangelizing do more of it than Pastor Warren by default, seeing as how the gospel he presents is misleading.

Quote
I think he believes in free will and the power of the Holy Spirit to do His job. I don't think Rick gets confused like that and try to do God's job!

Which must be why he thinks we need to use the world's means to attract the world.

Quote
The very fact that He told the disciples to quit badmouthing the ones who were doing work in His name should be enough to silence us. We are the true villains if we continue to persecute our fellow Brothers in Christ.

Where is anyone persecuting Warren? There is criticism of what he teaches, which is warranted because it is not in accord with the Bible. If we do not adhere to Bible truths in the preaching of the Gospel and evangelism toward the lost, we lose our grounding.

Quote
Let's show some LOVE, exhortaion and Admonition. Build one another up! Instead of tearing down! Build the Kingdom!

ADMONITION indeed is what Pastor Warren needs for promoting unbiblical methods and messages.
Posted By: Adopted Re: Here's a Thought - Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:34 PM
Other religions may have truth but do not have "The Truth".

This is exactly the nature of deception.

The truth that they have, is either unknowingly derived from Scripture or a happy little coincidental accident.

This belief in the possibility of a man knowing any truth outside of the Word of God is the problem and catastrophe of men in general. Not only does this apply to other religions but to the secular "religion" of scientific atheism. Men may know nothing even of our material world unless it is revealed to them by Scripture of the ultimate spiritual foundation and continuous providential creation by our sovereign God.

Newton made a good guess but was wrong. Without a spiritual cause, movement and his physics are impossible. They are impossible by the very same mathematics he used to prove his theories in the first place.

Belief in the following words would wipe out all mysticism and religious speculation from the face of our earth. They caused a deadly wound to fall upon the dark age RCC.

"However all things are ordained by God's plan, according to a sure dispensation, for us they are fortuitous - the true causes of all events are unknown to us" Calvin Institutes 1-16-9

Denny

Rom. 3:22-24
Posted By: Tom Re: Here's a Thought - Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:57 AM
Adopted

I would be interested in you responding point by point to J_Edwards Dec 15th 04:58 AM post.

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Here's a Thought - Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:31 PM
Quote
Tom said:
Adopted

I would be interested in you responding point by point to J_Edwards Dec 15th 04:58 AM post.
Tom,

You need to provide a LINK to that post if you want someone to be able to read it. Providing the time is useless for the most part because the time is relative to your personal location (time zone). What is "Dec 15th 04:58 AM" to you may be "Dec 16th 11:58 PM" to someone else who is living on the other side of the globe.
Posted By: Adopted Re: Here's a Thought - Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:32 PM
I would make a positive response to all of his points. I agree with what he said.

The foundation of Christianity is "Sola Scriptura". This is why the Westminster Confession and the great teachings of Christianity all begin with the subject of God's Word. This love of Scripture was the heartbeat of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

To put this simply is to say "What if Adam and Eve would have responded in obedience to the revealed Word of God in Eden"?

All religions and cults make the fatal error of either ignoring of adding to His Word. The subtle deception of Satan in the garden was absolute truth except for the addition of the single word "not" in "you shall surely not die".

It is my belief that the "unforgivable sin" is not in the misinterpretation of the Word of God but in the denial of the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura". The greatest sin possible is believing that our precious Savior and his words are not exactly what our Protestant Bibles say they are. That being, "The Word of God". The "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is in this denial, as the Spirit of God comes only in union with the Word.

Denny

Rom 3:22-24
Posted By: PaulRH Something good from Rick Warren - Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:00 PM
http://www.celebraterecovery.com/index.asp

There are some very good things coming out of SaddleBack Church and Rick Warren. Namely, changed lives.
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Something good from Rick Warren - Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:39 PM
Quote
PaulRH said:
http://www.celebraterecovery.com/index.asp

There are some very good things coming out of SaddleBack Church and Rick Warren. Namely, changed lives.
Changed to what is the question that remains???

PS: only God truly changes lives, not Rick Warren or Saddleback, not a program, etc. Though God even uses false doctrine for His glory (someone will probably have a question concerning this, but...), it does not substantiate the ministry of Warren or anyone else promoting such false doctrine. Additionally, correct theology is not determined by a majority vote or large numbers.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Something good from Rick Warren - Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:28 PM
Joe,

I have to agree, especially after reading what their "8 Principles" entail in this "Celebrate Recovery" program. It appears to be nothing more than a "baptized" version of AA's 12 Steps program. Warren's theology has so dumbed down and distorted the Gospel that is useless, which in essence is what the apostle Paul would call, "another gospel". It's nothing more than a new twist of Sandemanianism (aka: Easy Believism). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
Posted By: PaulRH Re: Something good from Rick Warren - Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:21 PM
You should talk to some people who have been or are currently in the program before you dismiss it so bluntly.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Something good from Rick Warren - Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:23 PM
I know may people "in the program" and IMO this is a man centered gospel. I am sure you can glean some truths out of it, but that does not make it acceptable.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Something good from Rick Warren - Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:53 PM
Will they echo the same heresies taught in the "program"? Any "program" based upon a faulty interpretation is, 'faulty'.


God bless,

william
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Rick Warren Quote - Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:10 PM
Yikes. Certainly he is not incorrect by stating there exists truth in other religions. But he seems to pander to those religions when he says things like "we just" and "I just" (emphasis on just). Had he said "you know, there definitely are truths in other religions. However, they miss the boat when they fail to teach justification by faith in Christ, and this puts up a barrier in the similarities between our faiths"...or something like that. Doesn't seem like he does that, at least not here.
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