The Highway
Posted By: Anonymous Christian Metalcore - Wed May 14, 2003 4:31 PM
<center>[color:red]<font class="big">This post was moved from: Chatterbox Cafe - Joe [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/compute.gif" alt="compute" title="compute[/img]</font mu=big></font color=red></center><br><br>Any Christian melodic hardcore, or metalcore, listeners out there? I'de love to know what bands you listen to and maybe recommend some.
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Wed May 14, 2003 4:45 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Any Christian melodic hardcore, or metalcore, listeners out there? </font><hr></blockquote><p> I attempt only to listen to the Rock!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Wed May 14, 2003 4:55 PM
Well thats alright. What bands?
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Wed May 14, 2003 6:03 PM
Sorry, I only listen to Christian hymns and some classical.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 1:00 AM
Oh well. I won't hold that agianst you. Its an acquired taste (kinda like bluegrass which i also enjoy listening too).
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 1:53 PM
OK, I have to ask. ARE THERE Christian metal bands? I ask because in my unregenerate days, I was quite the metal head (tattoos, played bass in bands, was the "singer", etc.). If there are such bands that are truly Christian, I would be interested in knowing.<br><br>Steve
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 2:07 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]OK, I have to ask. ARE THERE Christian metal bands? I ask because in my unregenerate days, I was quite the metal head (tattoos, played bass in bands, was the "singer", etc.). If there are such bands that are truly Christian, I would be interested in knowing.</font><hr></blockquote><p> IMHO there are NOT and that is what I was attempting, in an indirect way, of getting across to him by saying I only listen to "the Rock"! I find "some" new good music out there, but very little. I have never found anything "rocky" or "metalish" to glorify God ....., but again this is only my opinion. Hymns are my favorite and normally the older the better.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 4:26 PM
Well I can't see inside their hearts to know if they are truly Christians but they profess it and i don't see anything to make me believe otherwise. Some of them are actually just Christians in a band. ANd thats actually pretty good to because even though the songs are not Christian songs they are still a good alternative to all the profanity and violence of the secular stuff. But like i said its an acquired taste. I think the way music sounds is up to the listener. I always listen to the words to make sure there is nothing in them that is questionable. <br><br> [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bash.gif" alt="bash" title="bash[/img] i feel pretty stupid for not getting that "the Rock" statement that Joe made.
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 4:47 PM
Don't feel stupid, the statement first made me think of "the Rock" from Pro Wrestling/movies. Then I thought it meant something about that ol' commercial "get a piece of the rock!". Finally, I figgered out the meaning. <br>Oh wait, maybe I'm stupid too :)<br>Steve
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 5:44 PM
Aquired taste, yes, but acquired from what, who, and where? I do not doubt that some have good intentions, maybe even Christians, et. al., but simply ask yourself does it (the words, melody, et.al.) glorify God? If it does then you have nothing to be concerned with. But, if it doesn't, well then you will "wonder if" and probably post questions about it, et. al.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 6:23 PM
Like i said. I wouldn't listen to something with questionable lyrics. But how can a melody in itself glorify or not glorify God. ITs just sounds. Noise. Its the lyrics that really make the difference. This of course is my opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 6:34 PM
I'm not to crazy about classical but i love me some hymns. I still find myself singing the hymns i grew up on in the little methodist church i attended. Except now they actually mean something to me.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 6:48 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But how can a melody in itself glorify or not glorify God. ITs just sounds. Noise. Its the lyrics that really make the difference. This of course is my opinion.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Your "opinion" is justly yours, but it is not based upon facts found in Scripture, medical research nor real life experience. Is there ANYTHING that exists which is "amoral"; indeed can there be such a thing? Can there be something which doesn't glorify God yet is deemed "good"? [Linked Image]<br><br>
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 6:57 PM
And neither is there anything Biblical that says the melody of "Rock of Ages" (Toplady's version, not Def Leppard) glorifies God.<br>However, I would say Rock of Ages (again, Toplady) is the greatest hymn ever. But not because of the melody.<br><br>Thus, Zar's point is a great one. The music is just that...music. The lyrics would be what counts.<br><br>Is the music itself "amoral"? Depends how it is used, right? Is a computer amoral? If I look at internet porn, it is immoral. If I read the Bible online or read the works of AW Pink online, then it is a great tool for me to learn more about God. So too if guitar music accompanies godly lyrics, then the guitar music is not immoral, but if it accompanies Slayer or Megadeth, then it is pretty immoral.<br><br>Steve
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:05 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is the music itself "amoral"? Depends how it is used, right?</font><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry you missed the point entirely, or you are unable to grasp the truth of the matter, or ???? So, at this point, I think I'm just going to make my way off stage and let you "metalheads" or whatever the correct terminology is nowadays, [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] have at it. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:09 PM
Amen! How do we know what early church psalms sounded like? They may very well have sounded offensive to our modern ears as far as the melody goes. And the Hebrew Songs of the Old Testament are still sung by Jews to this day. I for one think they sound beautiful but i have a friend that says that they sound horrible.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:13 PM
I guess were both just stupid "metalheads"
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:19 PM
Hey Pilgrim!<br>I think I grasped your point (I may be stupid, but I am able to grasp a point now and then [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] )<br><br>You said can there be anything which does not glorify God which is good. The answer is no, of course not. A common gracer would say yes, but (just kidding, don't want to open up THAT can of worms [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] ).<br><br>To that end, I asked if the melody for Rock of Ages by Toplady glorifies God in and of itself. My answer would be no.<br><br>And thus I think the same would be the case with metal music. My association with metal has always been with pretty evil bands. A few of the individual songs had profound messages at the core, actually, but the approach was horrid (profanity-laced lyrics) and thus they were neither good nor God-glorifying. That being said, I don't see that there is anything inherently bad in the music itself, and that it is feasible that the medium could be used to glorify God. <br><br>It is funny that I say this, because worship bands and pop Christian songs in general repulse me. This is likely because every worship band I have witnessed has been incoherent, the lyrics weak, and thus they and the congregation did not glorify God. <br><br>And Pilgrim, don't back out now! The fun is just beginning! Crank the amps up to 11 ! ("ours go to 11" - anybody remember what that is from? ).<br><br>Blessings,<br>Steve
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:42 PM
Steve, try reading this for starters: "Christian" Rock Music Christian or Satanic?<br><br>And there are quite a number of good articles which deal with music in this section: Ecclesiology: The Doctrine of the Church<br><br>And of course, this one too: Worship in the Melting Pot<br><br><br><br>
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:45 PM
I will say this...being a metalhead can be stupid. I'm half deaf in one ear because of loud music.<br><br>So maybe there is something to be said about it being inherently bad.... <br><br>Blessings,<br>Steve
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:54 PM
Just read "Christian Rock Music..Christian or Satanic".<br>Much of the article could be turned on ANY hymn, and certain parts (especially the scientific sections) are rather dated and speculative. However, the author has a FANTASTIC point that the score should not overshadow the message. <br><br>When my folks (rightly) used to question my listening to metal, my response was always "I like the music, I can hardly hear the lyrics". And THAT point is a great one AGAINST Christian metal. "Good" (secular meaning of good) metal music is going to be loud, and although the lyrics are understood and should be comprehended, they are at best 50% of the package. <br><br>A case could be made that we shouldn't listen to anything except for church hymns (or perhaps merely even Psalms). Because I love classical music as well, but I'm not sure it is God-glorifying. <br><br>Steve
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Thu May 15, 2003 7:58 PM
Good point. But i used to be in a band myself and my ears are fine. This was before Christ of course so i think it hurt me more spiritually than it did physically.
Posted By: J_Edwards Rock Around the Clock? - Thu May 15, 2003 8:52 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is the music itself "amoral"? Depends how it is used, right? Is a computer amoral? If I look at internet porn, it is immoral. If I read the Bible online or read the works of AW Pink online, then it is a great tool for me to learn more about God. So too if guitar music accompanies godly lyrics, then the guitar music is not immoral, but if it accompanies Slayer or Megadeth, then it is pretty immoral.</font><hr></blockquote><p> And David in the Psalms played heavy metal, right? Did he rock around the clock, or Rock around the Throne? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/heavy.gif" alt="heavy" title="heavy[/img]<br><br>Even in John Frame’s, Contemporary Worship Music, a Biblical Defense, a rather liberal book IMHO, he makes this statement, [color:blue]Because God is who He is, worship must be God centered. We worship God because He supremely deserves it, and because He desires it.</font color=blue> Now, of course, you will say, well I am just listening to heavy metal music while not in my worship mode…, but then that bears the question when God said you should stop worshiping. True worship is continuous. They that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), and I do not believe that means “merely” sometimes. Our bodies are the TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit (all the time)—think of His ears!<br>
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Fri May 16, 2003 1:48 AM
more good points. I give up though.[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/surrender.gif" alt="surrender" title="surrender[/img] I didn't know this was gonna turn into[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/argue.gif" alt="argue" title="argue[/img] I just thought i could find some people on here with similar musical interests. Oh well. I'm cool with hymns. We can talk about that to.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Fri May 16, 2003 3:45 AM
I like Zao, Living Sacrifice, Satvesacre, Project 86, Blindside, 3rd Root, a now broken up Christian punk band Officer Negative, Strongarm, uuuhhh...there is a local band here in Evansville called The Redemption Song, Dogwood, The Fighting Jacks (an indie band out of San Jose who has a CD coming out on Tooth and Nail this Oct I believe), Embodyment, Chevelle...that is about all that comes to mind. Just thought I'd share [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool[/img]
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Rock Around the Clock? - Fri May 16, 2003 11:34 AM
And David in the Psalms played heavy metal, right? Did he rock around the clock, or Rock around the Throne?<br><br>Did he have a $500,000 pipe organ?<br><br>Steve
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Rock Around the Clock? - Fri May 16, 2003 1:39 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Did he have a $500,000 pipe organ?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Since, God was the object of his thought and conscious he did not need one. But what is a harp, a piano turned on its side, thus if I could find his harp today it would probably be worth more that $500,000, as if this really matters [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flatcat.gif" alt="flatcat" title="flatcat[/img]. The type of instrument is not what is in "question", thus your argument equivocal.<br><br>P.S. David did attempt to use heavy-metal, but he took it off to fight Goliath [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Rock Around the Clock? - Fri May 16, 2003 2:20 PM
No, the price nor the instrument matters, does it? <br>
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Rock Around the Clock? - Fri May 16, 2003 2:29 PM
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]No, the price nor the instrument matters, does it?

Absolutely! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] But what DOES matter is the playing, listening or even being attracted to "music" that is antithetical to everything that exemplifies God. One cannot simply "baptize" something godless and expect that it will glorify God. Nor can one use something godless for the purpose of promoting Christianity. The entire idea is inane yet incredibly popular. However, it is more than simply popular as it is actually cultic in its hold on those who have allowed themselves to embrace it. Trying to wean someone from CCM, never mind this "Metal" stuff is like trying to get a heroine addict to quit cold turkey.

1 John 2:16 (KJV) "For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."


In His Grace,
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Rock Around the Clock? - Fri May 16, 2003 2:39 PM
In reply to:
No, the price nor the instrument matters, does it?

The key is does it glorify God. Now how that is worked out will reveal whether one goes towards truth or error in his interpretation of what is right in God's eyes. I have no objection to any type of instrument as long as it is used correctly for God's glory. The Corinthian church was reprimanded for there improper use of certain gifts in the church and Paul's reply was to do all-things decently and in order. Paul did not desire confusion in the church. Does heavy metal cause confusion in-the church or in the soul of man, et. al. I would have to say YES!

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
MacArthur comments on this verse saying, In NT times, rites honoring the pagan deities Cybele, Bacchus, and Dionysius included ecstatic noises accompanied by gongs, cymbals, and trumpets. I believe that could also be applied to heavy-metal.

MacArthur, John. The MacArthur Study Bible. Electronic ed., 1 Co 13:1. Nashville, TN: Word Pub., 1997, c1997.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Fri May 16, 2003 6:53 PM
THANK YOU!!!! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thewave.gif" alt="thewave" title="thewave[/img] Finally some one i can talk to about this. <br><br>I love Zao. And officer negative. I'm not as big on punk as i used to be. I also like emo(though i wish they would come up with a less absurd name for it) but lately i've been listening to metalcore bands like NOrma Jean, Anah Aevia, Foreknown(very solid songs about God), some of the old strongarm stuff (made up mostly of guys who are now in Further Seems forever) and Falling Cycle.<br><br>Maybe since were not [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/takethat.gif" alt="takethat" title="takethat[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/argue.gif" alt="argue" title="argue[/img] they will put this back on Chatterbox where it belongs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 1:10 PM
I like punk music live a lot better than on CD and such. It's faster and you get to see what the band is like as people. Our local scene here is great with that kind of music. I've hung out with Sidewalk Slam and Joy Electric (Joy Electric not being punk of course) and it is just incredible the way the bands are. You don't get that in the Christian pop world at all. But in the edgier music scene, you got people who are willing to hang out with their fans and possibly share the amazing saving sovereign grace of Jesus with them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 4:04 PM
Cool. I havean't been to alot of shows. There pretty rare here in MS. Every now and then a descent band will come to Jackson or Hattiesburg. I'm usually broke when that happens. I've seen alot more sincerity in the edgier bands than i have in the poppier ones to be honest. ONe problem is that all Christian bands are moving farther and farther from the truth in their songs. They usually just beat around the bush and water down the Gospel. But its still a start for some kids to get interested in Christ.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 4:34 PM
What I would like to see someday is a Christian punk band preaching the truth of the Reformed faith. A Calvinist punk band. That'd be something so crazy awesome. Who knows if that will ever happen though in these days of semi-Arminian and borderline Pelagian theological views and a straying away from Biblical truths [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/crybaby.gif" alt="crybaby" title="crybaby[/img]
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 4:44 PM
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/yep.gif" alt="yep" title="yep[/img] i gree totally. I don't know of any reformed bands out there. That would be great.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 5:11 PM
I don't know of any Reformed punk bands or metalcore or whatever it is[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img]. Have you tried Caedmon's Call or Derek Webb(formerly of Caed.Call)? I've found their lyrics to be quite in line with reformed theology and not at all shallow. Again, not punk or metalcore...I think they would be considered folk or folk-rock. <br><br>my $.02
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 6:53 PM
The O.C. Supertones also have a Reformed angle to their lyrics. They are ska.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 7:29 PM
Cool. I'll have to check em' out. Although ska is not particularly my "thing", I'll give em' a listen.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Sat May 17, 2003 7:38 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]What I would like to see someday is a Christian punk band preaching the truth of the Reformed faith.</font><hr></blockquote><p>You obviously haven't a clue as to how absurd this idea is, do you? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] Is is akin to wanting to see a group of practicing homosexuals open a coffee shop for males where they can hear the doctrines of grace preached. Or, to open a "Christian" bordello where the prostitutes hand out gospel tracts to their customers before they leave. You may rightly lament the proliferation and popularity of semi-Pelagianism and other aberrant theological views. But you have totally failed to discern the evil of this type of worldly and satanic "music". When the Spirit moved through the hearers of Ephesus, regenerating them and convicting them of their idolatrous sins, etc., the showed forth fruit of repentance by BURNING those things which were contrary to all righteousness and godliness. Today, people don't burn wicked and worldly things.... they "baptize" them and bring them along with them wherever they go, just like the little idols of the O.T..<blockquote>2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (KJV) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."<br><br>Ephesians 4:17-24 (ASV) "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth."<br><br>Ephesians 5:3-16 (ASV) "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints; nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them; For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is well-pleasing unto the Lord; and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them; for the things which are done by them in secret it is a shame even to speak of. But all things when they are reproved are made manifest by the light: for everything that is made manifest is light. Wherefore [he] saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee. Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil."<br><br>1 Peter 2:9-12 (ASV) "But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for [God's] own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul; having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."<br><br>1 John 2:15-17 (ASV) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."</blockquote>Cast off this hold that this "music" has on you and [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img] from it as far as you can possibly get. Heavy Metal, Punk, Rap, etc., etc... is not of God and will not only destroy the credibility of your profession, but it will assuredly blind you to the truth of Christ; both in doctrine and life.<br><br>In His Grace,
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sun May 18, 2003 12:57 AM
I was a Punker before I was a Christian. The reason that I say that is that I've become a Christian Hippie since. When I became a Christian I went to a Christian bookstore and asked for Christian Punk. I was handed a card with some of my favorite secular Punk bands on one side and their Christian counterparts on the other. I find that most of the bands who play such music are just Christianized derivative. Also my ears have softened and I have moved on to Jazz. I did like a Tempe, Arizona based band called The Justified for a while. But I gave the CD to a Ukrainian. That's my five shillings worth.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Sun May 18, 2003 2:52 AM
I am niether a homosexual or a prostitute nor do any of the bands i listen to take part in these things as far as i know. If Godly people are playing music to Godly lyrics and acting in a Godly manner then it is to the Glory of God. Any style of music can be made unholy if unregenerate people are singing godless lyrics and using it for godless ends. I'm finished talking about this. It was supposed to be a casual chat about one of my interests but now its just [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scold.gif" alt="scold" title="scold[/img]. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Sun May 18, 2003 11:17 AM
NOTHING was even hinted at that you are personally homosexual or a prostitute, etc. Your response only goes to prove my point, which has been shown here countless times with those who, like yourself, have been snared and held captive by this satanic influence you call "music". If someone criticizes it, it is like someone is questioning one's salvation, although pushed to the ultimate, there may be some validity to that. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] The foundational error is that you have cast off the biblical truth that NOTHING is "amoral". Things, thoughts, and deeds are either good or they are bad. Either they glorify God or they do not. Even those things which are called "Adiaphora" (things indifferent), everything is inherently good else they could never be deemed acceptable for a believer.<br><br>The fallacy of this worldly philosophy has also been demonstrated on this Board many times over. It can be reduced down to a logical syllogism, which in itself is illogical. <br><br>[color:blue]God created music,<br>Therefore, music is good.<br>Metalcore [Punk, ska, et al] is music,<br>Therefore, Metalcore, etc..... is good.</font color=blue><br><br>So that you can see how fallacious this way of thinking is and totally unbiblical, let's substitute something which we all know is sinful in the syllogism and see how it works out.<br><br>[color:red]God created sex,<br>Therefore, sex is good.<br>Homosexuality is sex,<br>Therefore, homosexuality is good.</font color=red><br><br>That should hopefully shock your brain a bit to get you to think beyond the captivating influence that has you thinking in this manner and to adopt a biblical pattern of thinking concerning what is lawful, pure, good, etc. Here is how the syllogism should read:<br><br>[color:purple]God created music,<br>Therefore music is good.<br>God created Metalcore,<br>Therefore Metalcore is good.</font color=purple><br><br>The problem should now be crystal clear. God did NOT create any particular "style/form" of music; man did. Thus, man being inherently evil, each style/form of music must be judged individually according to an OBJECTIVE standard along with its subjective influence and its original intent, etc. That objective standard is the Scripture which reveals to us the true nature of God and His expressed attributes. And there is the objective standard of music theory, etc. A superficial comparison of these modern types of "music", e.g., Heavy Metal, ska, Punk, etc. will show that there is virtually nothing about them that exemplifies the nature and/or attributes of God. One cannot take something which is UNGodly and "baptize" it by saying that it can be "used" by Christians with right motives, etc., and thus it is good. As I tried to illustrate, you cannot take something which is immoral and "Christianize" it.<br><br>Lastly, don't think that just because I'm much older than you that this is simply a matter of "gramps" vs. the young generation. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] I was playing R&R in Hollywood before you were born, that is true. My band also won the "Battle of the Bands" sponsored by Rolling Stone Magazine with all the "benefits", etc.. We also were offered a recording contract with Columbia Records. I've rubbed shoulders with the "big names" in the music industry, e.g., Tim Buckley, The Monkeys, Mamas and Papas, The Nitty Ditty Dirt Band, etc. The point is, I'm no stranger to contemporary "music". In fact, I have personal knowledge and experience as to what it is, why it was written, it's purpose, what it can and does accomplish, etc.. I also have advanced degrees in music, thus I am more than familiar with music theory, and more. But most importantly, I am a Christian who is fairly well versed in the Word of God and know what is "worldly" and what is "godly" and what a believer should be allowing to enter into their mind and body. You are playing with fire here my friend and I pray you will not be permanently scarred or even worse, suffer the fires that never go out at that last day. This is serious business and not, as the Evil One would have you believe, just a matter of personal "taste" or preference. Trust me...... in Heaven, the host of angels and departed saints are not having a mosh pit with Jesus Christ being the lead singer of a celestial Metalcore band. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,
Posted By: J_Edwards Excellent Pilgrim!!! - Sun May 18, 2003 2:59 PM
Pilgrim hit it on the head. I may only add, from FREEDOM MINISTRIES:<br><br>There appears to be a parallel between the attempt today to "Christianize" rock music and the "Christianization" of various pagan religious practices in fourth century Rome. The Babylonian mystery religions were introduced into Christianity by Constantine in 313 A.D. as he tried to incorporate the pagans into the newly constituted "Holy" Roman Empire. The Constantine-led Roman church was willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. The heathen festivals were adopted into Christianity, and then eventually, many of the associated pagan symbols and actions were reinterpreted in ways acceptable to Christian faith and practice. "Christianization" of pagan customs, symbols, etc., occurred as Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could "convert" without giving up their old beliefs and rituals. <br><br>Has not the modern church of today done much of the same adoption, reinterpretation, and "Christianization" of what is called "rock music" in order to make Christianity more palatable to the "teenaged" lost? And does not this approach smack of the traditional Roman Catholic method of making converts from pagans?-first adopt the pagan practices, and then reapply biblical meaning to them. In this manner, the former pagans can retain their pagan idolatrous heritage by merely renaming the idols and changing the terminology used in the worship of them. <br><br>Go to the Rock that is higher than you!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 1:54 PM
I see what you are saying, but I don't agree fully. Here is a quote from St. Augustine's "On Christian Doctrine" <blockquote>[color:purple]If those who are called philosophers, especially the platonists, have said things which are indeed true and are well accomodated to our faith, they should not be feared; rather, what they have said should be taken from them as from unjust posessors and converted to our use. Just as the Egyptians had not only idols and grave burdens which the people of Israel detested and avoided, so also they had vases and ornaments of Gold and silver and clothing which the Israelites took with them secretly when they fled, as if to put them to a better use. They did not do this on their own authority but at God's commandment, while the Egyptians unwittingly supplied them with things which they themselves did not use well. In the same way all the teachings of the pagans contain not only simulated and superstitous imaginings and grave burdens of unnecessary labor, which each one of us leaving the society of pagans under the leadership of Christ ought to abominate and avoid, but also liberal disciplines more suited to the uses of truth, and some most useful precepts concerning morals. Even some truths concerning the worship of one God are discovered among them...When the Christian seperates himself from their miserable society, he should take this treasure with him for the just use of teaching the gospel.</font color=purple> (2.40.60)</blockquote>Now this does pertain to teaching, but I think we can apply it to music as well. If something is suitable to the preaching of the gospel, then why shy away from it? Man invented the internet but the internet is not all bad. Man invented the car but the car is not all bad. Man invented the airplane but the airplane is not bad. What's bad is some of the people who use those things. <br><br>In that same book, Augustine talks about how some things are to be used, some enjoyed, and some used and enjoyed. And those things which are enjoyed are to be enjoyed in that they glorify God. What glorifies God is the heart behind the music. Take some hymns for example. Some of our hymns were written to the music of secular songs. I am not sure what ones exactly, but that is just something I have heard. And some of the hymns by the Wesleys, if I am not mistaken, were written before he was saved. So those hymns should not be sung even if the lyrics are totally true to the Bible, if we say everything made by man is bad. <br><br>I believe that Christian men can lay hold of some things of this world and use them to bring the truth of the gospel to people who are dead in sin. A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset. As Paul says, <blockquote>[color:blue]To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.</font color=blue> (1 Corinthians 9:22 NASB)</blockquote>I think that some things are a matter of conscience. As, again, Paul says, <blockquote>[color:blue]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.</font color=blue> (Romans 14:23 NASB)</blockquote>Just my 2 cents.<br>
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 2:35 PM
I am sure Pilgrim will respond, but until then,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset.... 1 Cor 9:22</font><hr></blockquote><p> So, if I reason this way than I should become an adulterer, so I can minister to adulators, or a pornographer, so I can minister to pornographers, or a child molester, so I can minister to child molesters? After all each of these embraces a form of "weakness" if I use the term in the manner in which you think it is meant.<br><br>You have taken Augustine's argument and more importantly the Scripture and made an equivocal error. Augustine said [color:red]have said things which are indeed true and are well accommodating to our faith</font color=red>. So, the first question you must ask yourself: Is adultery true and accommodating to our faith? NO, Is pornography true and accommodating to our faith? NO, Is child molestation true and accommodating to our faith? Is rock music true and accommodating to our faith, when its roots are ingrained in rites honoring the pagan deities Cybele, Bacchus, and Dionysius (including ecstatic noises accompanied by gongs, cymbals, and trumpets), et. al.? NO!!!<br><br>Weakness in 1 Cor 9:22, far from meaning that we must become "worse" sinners than we already are to minister to another sinner, means within the bounds of God’s Word, we should not offend the Jew, Gentile, or those weak in understanding... and thus stoop to their level of understanding. But, Paul did not mean changing Scripture or compromising the truth in an attempt to stoop.. <br><br>As Calvin says,<br><br>Now, if we consider how great a man Paul was, who stooped thus far, ought we not to feel ashamed — we who are next to nothing in comparison with him — if, bound up in self, we look with disdain upon the weak, and do not deign to yield up a single point to them? But while it is proper that we should accommodate ourselves to the weak, according to the Apostle’s injunction, and that, in things indifferent, and with a view to their edification, those act an improper part, who, with the view of consulting their own ease, avoid those things that would offend men, and the wicked, too, rather than the weak. Those, however, commit a two-fold error, [color:blue]who do not distinguish between things indifferent and things unlawful, and accordingly do not hesitate, for the sake of pleasing men, to engage in things that the Lord has prohibited.</font color=blue> [color:red]The crowning point, however, of the evil is this — that they abuse this statement of Paul to excuse their wicked dissimulation.</font color=red> <br><br>Calvin, John. Calvin's Commentaries: 1 Corinthians. electronic ed. Logos Library System;Calvin's Commentaries, 1 Co 9:22. Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1998.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:02 PM
Kalled2Preach,

Unfortunately your analogy between what Augustine's thoughts were in regard to the teaching of pagan philosophers and music is irrelevant. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. There is "true truth", i.e., objective true which has been given by God. This is the standard by which all teaching must be measured. However, with music "style", this is something God did NOT create. God created the sounds, tones, ability to hear, etc., with which man has put together in various arrangements and called "music". There are certain configurations which are expressive of the nature and attributes of God and thus are said to "glorify" God. The "intent, motive" of the composer has little to no bearing upon what is God glorifying. The result of the composition, its structure, complexity, harmony, dissonance, meter, etc. as can be determined objectively and the effect that it has upon one's mind and soul are to be the determining factors of whether or not it is suitable for a child of God to listen to and/or to be used in the worship of God.
In reply to:
I believe that Christian men can lay hold of some things of this world and use them to bring the truth of the gospel to people who are dead in sin.

Yes, this is certainly possible and something which if it wasn't possible, we would as Christians be in serious trouble, as life itself would be nearly impossible. grin The question is, however, what "things of this world" are we ALLOWED to use and which are ordained of God for our use in bringing the Gospel? Let's be very clear on one thing, shall we? The effectiveness of the Gospel to save sinners is NOT dependent upon any "thing", method or person. As Paul has written, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16). And Peter wrote, "having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1Pet 1:23). The salvation of the worst of sinners is to be seen NOT in the use of "things" but in the working of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. We simply do not NEED "things" to help God the Spirit save sinners. God has been saving His elect for millennia quite nicely and never lost one, and without the aid of "things" being added to the Gospel.

In reply to:
A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset.

A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers may indeed be rejected. Would you really expect anything less? Isn't this the normal reaction that one should expect when you have darkness and light in the same room? There is no desire or need of "light" to those who are in darkness (Jh 1:5; 3:19; Eph 4:17-19; 6:12; et al). It isn't just "punk teenagers" who would have a natural aversion, even hatred, of a man who represents the true God and speaks His truth. ALL who are born into this world are born with a natural hatred of God and all that pertains to Him. So, if you bring in a "punk band" and these teenagers who are naturally haters of God and all that is good and right, have no hostility toward those in the band, doesn't that tell you something? It should tell you what the Scriptures speak of in many places....... "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1Jh 2:16) Bringing in something which is sinful to attract sinners is certainly not condoned by God and certainly cannot be seen as being compatible with a Gospel which would have those who would be reconciled to God, REPENT; a turning FROM sin and BELIEVE on a Saviour Who was cursed and punished for the very sins they are reveling in. God doesn't love people the way the are. He hates the way they are and has sent forth His Son to suffer in the place of them for what and who they are.

Choosing whether or not to eat Alberta beef or to drink a glass of wine is certainly a matter of personal preference. But choosing to sin or not sin is NOT a matter of personal preference. The issue, once again is that the Scripture does NOT teach that there are "things" (anything) which are "Amoral". Everything that exists is either good (glorifies God) or it is bad (opposes God). It is also true, that men may take that which is good and use it for evil. Further, men may partake of that which is good and which has even been enjoined by God and it can become something which should be abstained from. This is the situation with the use of things "indifferent" (Adiaphora) to which Paul addresses the churches concerning the Weak and Strong.

You are going to first show that "Metalcore", "Punk", "ska", "Rock & Roll", etc., etc., is "good".... i.e., that each form of music is expressive/reflective of the nature and attributes of God. Further, you are going to have to show that the affect of this music upon the mind, body and soul of those who hear it brings people more in line with what God intends for mankind to be; i.e., does the music promote the being conformed into the image of Christ? As much as I have a dislike for the "What Would Jesus Do?" mentality and its total distortion of biblical truth concerning sanctification, morals, etc... there is some merit in asking the question whether or not the Lord Christ would be involved, approve, etc. of an activity, thing, etc. Thus, we might ask if it is plausible that the God-man, Christ Jesus would be part of a "Punk Band"? Is it actually conceivable that the Lord of the Universe would get on a stage and bang upon a guitar, gyrating to the beat of "music" played at 110 decibels, and scream into a microphone to an audience in order to help them accept Him as Lord and Saviour?



In His Grace,
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:07 PM
But pronography and adultry are blatant sin. God gave man music to praise Him with and glorify Him with. Psalm 150,
Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD! (Psalms 150:3-6 NASB)
Unregenerate men just took it and used it for their own purposes. So why can't Christians take what is rightfully theirs to begin with back from them?


Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:23 PM
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Thus, we might ask if it is plausible that the God-man, Christ Jesus would be part of a "Punk Band"? Is it actually conceivable that the Lord of the Universe would get on a stage and bang upon a guitar, gyrating to the beat of "music" played at 110 decibels, and scream into a microphone to an audience in order to help them accept Him as Lord and Saviour?

You make a very valid point there. And I don't see Jesus as a punk rocker. But then I come to this thought. If the music is sinful, as you are saying it is, then is going to a punk show sinful? And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.

Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:37 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But pronography and adultry are blatant sin. God gave man music to praise Him with and glorify Him with. Psalm 150,</font><hr></blockquote><p> Thank you for making my point once again. Adultery is blatant sin because it is the misuse of God's gift of sex.....and since, God is the giver of His (true) music, things such as rock, metalcore, punk, et. al..........are depraved man's misuse of God's gift (which you agree with in your next statement [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]), thus sin!!! Thus, you should not be doing it!!!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Unregenerate men just took it and used it for their own purposes. So why can't Christians take what is rightfully theirs to begin with back from them?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Your statement has no foundation, because there is no place in Scripture it tells one to punk out or metalcore........et. al. ...<br><br>This is going in circles and I can see you will defend you folly no matter how many time it is disproved by God's Word. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img]
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:39 PM
In reply to:
If the music is sinful, as you are saying it is, then is going to a punk show sinful?

I am hoping that this is a rhetorical question! If XXX movies are sinful, then is going to the movie theater to watch them, sinful? [Linked Image]

In reply to:
And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.

The simple answer is that God IS sovereign. He has decreed who it is He will be reconciled to. He has foreordained every movement of everything, including those who go to punk concerts and those who preach the truth about Christ to the world. Thus, I seriously doubt that even one of those who attend these types of places is going to be lost or even saved later than he/she would have been otherwise, if Christians don't attend these concerts. Unless I'm totally unaware of what is happening out "there", I would think that these "punkers" do frequent other places, eh? You aren't going to tell me that these Punk Concerts are something which go on 24/7 for 365 days of the year are you? rofl

Seriously.... God will save all who He has determined to save. God will move in the hearts of those who He has determined to bring the Good News to go where these people are without them having to wallow in sin or to commit sin to speak the truth of salvation. The providence of God is actually quite amazing if you would think about it. wink

In His Grace,

Posted By: Jason1646 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 3:46 PM
In reply to:
And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.



Kalled2Preach, think about what you have written here. Do you really believe that if someone does not hear the Gospel at a "Christian" punk rock concert that there is no other means throughout their ordinary lives that they may be confronted with the truth of the Christian faith? These folks are not going to live at the concerts 24 hours per day for the rest of their lives. They have family who might be Christians and some of them probably even have jobs. grin Are you going to apply this same argument to advocate the need for Christians to have their own brothels and adult film studios that contain the Gospel message? My point is not to connect these activities as equally wrong, but to show why justifying the means by the end does not work. It is simply not our duty to engage in behavior that is unglorifying to God for the purpose of sharing the Gospel with fellow participants. Let God be the director of their providential opportunity for hearing the Gospel, we need to trust and obey.

Sincerely in Christ,

Jason

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 4:30 PM
I used to revel at Punk Rock shows. But the Lord brought me to church where I was saved.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 4:33 PM
Bravo!
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 4:59 PM
if I reason this way than I should become an adulterer, so I can minister to adulators

No Joe.
I believe you have presupposed that the music is evil, and thus used said that as adultery is an unbiblical form of sex, so too is metal an unbiblical form of music. The problem is those who disagree with you here are not conceding that metal is inherently bad.

Proper reasoning would be that a married person (or a widowed) should minister to those caught in adultery. A Roman Catholic celibate priest would not likely be effective, nor would he be taken seriously. That doesn't mean that it is impossible that a Roman priest could be effective, as it is conceivable that an unmarried man could understand fully the trials and tribulations of marriage, but that his lack of experience could be a detriment.

Likewise a group of unregenerate metal-heads would be more likely to listen to someone who understands them. Someone who either likes or liked the genre of music would be able to relate to them. This doesn't mean that the person has to like or have liked the evil stuff....but an awareness and understanding of the genre.

To minister we must at least understand (notice I didn't say partake) the sin...right?

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Steve
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:05 PM
Alright. So my statement about those people not hearing the gospel was not one of the most intelligent things I have ever said in my life. But I think my point was that we have a responsibility to preach the Truth to all peoples. And if I am going to follow Christ's example, then I need to meet people where they are at. I can't drag someone kicking and screaming where they don't want to go.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:10 PM
But the Bible also never says that rock music is sin either.
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:14 PM
What ever is not of faith is sin!--- How did God give you a measure of faith for something He regards as evil (2 Tim 2:24-26)?
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:18 PM
In reply to:
I believe you have presupposed that the music is evil, and thus used said that as adultery is an unbiblical form of sex, so too is metal an unbiblical form of music. The problem is those who disagree with you here are not conceding that metal is inherently bad.

No Steve, I no more think music is evil than I think sex within the confines of marriage is evil. But when both become perverted by man adultery and/or rock and roll, roll out the red carpet of satan's ways. And the reason why some do not concede that metal, et. al is evil is they fail to see it as a manipulation of God's best and are willing to accept something less than what God has ordained, thus entering into sin.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:31 PM
It seems to me like the mindset is that certain styles of music are evil in themselves and I just can not see that side of things. I can see where certain types of movies are bad. Christians should not make pornos. And I can see where homosexuality is bad because the Bible condemns it. But the Bible doesn't condemn rock music. <br><br>Pronography is bad because it glorifies fornication, but that doesn't mean that all film making is evil. Secular rock music is bad because it glorifies things other than God, but that doesn't make all rock music evil in and of itself. The root of film making wasn't to present the gospel and yet today there are Christian movies.
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:40 PM
Sorry I wasn't clear Joe...I said "the music". Not all music. I would not imply that you think all music is sin. Just "the music", where "the" implies the topic of this thread.

I'm simply saying you are presupposing that metal music is inherently evil.

Here's a question...is all instrumental music evil? If the answer is yes, then metal music could be considered evil, as it is mainly instrumental. However, then so too is the introduction that the organist plays at church without the choir and congregation singing.

If the answer is no, then there is no foundation to say "the music" is inherently evil. Godly men and women may be using their talents to glorify God.

Why can't somebody who is a talented guitar player, bass player, drummer, etc. glorify God by playing extremely challenging and difficult (and in many cases quite intricate and precise) music?

Steve
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:51 PM
IMHO there are NOT and that is what I was attempting, in an indirect way, of getting across to him by saying I only listen to "the Rock"! I find "some" new good music out there, but very little. I have never found anything "rocky" or "metalish" to glorify God ....., but again this is only my opinion. Hymns are my favorite and normally the older the better. <br><br>Joe,<br>In reading through this thread again, I really like this post! You state that you personally have not found this to glorify God, and then honestly state this is your opinion. You then give your preference for music.<br><br>To be honest, although I have been on the side of the pro-metal-heads, I have not yet seen anything that is God-glorifying either (I'm not really looking, mind you). I simply don't think it is impossible that such music could glorify the sovereign, thrice-holy God.<br><br>Guys, although I'm probably going to get attacked for saying this, I think we are dealing with a case of non-essentials here. Frankly this comes down to preference.<br><br>Steve<br>
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 5:59 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Pronography is bad because it glorifies fornication, but that doesn't mean that all film making is evil. [color:red]Secular rock music is bad because it glorifies things other than God, but that doesn't make all rock music evil in and of itself.</font color=red> The root of film making wasn't to present the gospel and yet today there are Christian movies. </font><hr></blockquote><p> And a similar logic: The intentional crashing of planes into the Twin Towers is bad because it glorifies other things than God, but that doesn't make all intentional plane crashes evil in and of themselves [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] <br><br>The problem here is that you are (1) supposing Rock music once existed as good and then was perverted by man (2) but, in reality Rock music has always been a perversion of man and was never good, and thus unredeemable.<br><br>
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 6:21 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]In reading through this thread again, I really like this post! You state that you personally have not found this to glorify God, and then honestly state this is your opinion. You then give your preference for music.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Yes, my opinion based on Scripture, which any reasonable person would have grasped. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]!<br><br>Sorry you failed to properly understand my intent with this post. Maybe this will help??--probably not, but:<br><br>[color:red]IMHO there are NOT</font color=red> referred to his comment [color:blue]ARE THERE Christian metal bands?...</font color=blue> and later I added [color:red]I have <span style="background-color:yellow;">never found</span> anything "rocky" or "metalish" to glorify God.</font color=red> I assume most know that since I am a Christian that IMHO refers to "based upon Scripture". So, Steve next time you know that IMHO it means IMHOBUS. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/idea.gif" alt="idea" title="idea[/img]<br><br>[color:red]I find "some" new good music out there, but very little,</font color=red> referred to Christian music today in general...new hymns...most of which I find unbiblical, thus I added [color:red]Hymns are my favorite and normally the older the better. </font color=red><br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I think we are dealing with a case of non-essentials here. Frankly this comes down to preference.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Very true, the preference of God or Satan. If you defend the enemy you are the enemy.
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 6:25 PM
Oops, a red herring! But it didn't work, because intentional plane crashes kill people. I seem to remember a commandment telling us we aren't supposed to do that.<br><br>And in the second half you are begging the question. You still have not shown Biblically that rock music is bad. <br>Nobody ever said rock music was once good and then was perverted and we are trying to recover its lost goodness.<br>Was the internet once good and then perverted? No, it was perverted to start with. Yet we are bickering over trivialities right now on the evil internet... how then can we possibly glorify God on the internet? And if we aren't glorifying God, aren't we sinning? And if we cannot not sin while using the internet, aren't we in blatant obedience to our Lord and Savior by using the internet at all? But that assumes the internet, which is generally used for evil, MUST be evil. I think the Highway is one example that it isn't ALL evil!<br><br>It seems to me that God takes the ungodly and makes them/it godly. <br><br>Steve
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 6:44 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Oops, a red herring! But it didn't work, because intentional plane crashes kill people. I seem to remember a commandment telling us we aren't supposed to do that.</font><hr></blockquote><p> And I seem to remember that we are to honor God, which rock music does not do? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] You still have not shown Biblically that rock music is bad. </font><hr></blockquote><p> Well as usual you have failed to read all the material. Pilgrim, myself, and others have presented a good case –SCRIPTURALLY against it. What begs the question is what Scriptural evidence do have to present for it to be Scriptural? I just have a hard time seeing allot of angels punking and metaling up in heaven> And Calvin and Luther are probably pounding away as well! Get real Steve! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/puke.gif" alt="puke" title="puke[/img]<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]It seems to me that God takes the ungodly and makes them/it godly.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Ever heard of election. He only makes some godly not all, thus not all music is godly, only that which He has “elected” that will glorify Him. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>And may I add those who are truly in Christ will seek to serve Him with music that glorifies Him. May God have mercy on those that think and do otherwise and bring them to the truth once delivered to the saints.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 6:47 PM
This will be my last post on this particular matter at this particular time. Enough has been said and shown that there is nothing which can be deemed "amoral". Thus everything that is must fall into one of two categories; that which is good and is glorifying to God or that which is evil and is opposed to God. This is aside from how something is used by man, for man can take that which is good and use it for evil purposes. But it is impossible that a good man may take something which is inherently evil and either make it good or use it to glorify God.<br><br>Now, Steve, there is a plethora of articles online which have and do show the inherent evil of certain types of music. You obviously haven't read many or any of them. Or, perhaps you have read a couple but simply refuse to accept all the proof offered from the Bible, medical research, clinical tests, history, personal testimony and experience, etc.?!!?! If one should demand that it be shown from the Scriptures that "metalcore" is forbidden, then there isn't much that a Christian can't do, as the Scriptures as intended by God wasn't written as a compilation of case law (despite what the Theonomists would have us believe) but it does contain PRINCIPLES by which we are then able to judge things in such matters. As well, there are the OBJECTIVE standards which these forms of music can be judged on their on merits or demerits within the music realm. And lastly, if these things are incomprehensible to you and such who are in bondage to this "music", I have to ask again, probably the most basic question which one who professes Christ must answer: What is there about any of these contemporary styles of music are GLORIFYING to God? What of God's nature is expressed it it? What attribute(s) are to be clearly seen in them? Would the Lord of Glory, should He walk among us once again in our day be part in this type of music's composition, performance and/or participation? Honestly.... I cannot even fathom someone suggesting that Jesus Christ would be found "letting loose" at some alleged "christian punk concert", tossing some girl about in a mosh pit, etc... !! It's blasphemous to even ponder in one's mind.<br><br>May God open all your eyes to see the total incompatibility between these aberrant forms of pagan expression and one professing to belong to the thrice Holy God.<br><br>In His Grace,
Posted By: J_Edwards Think Before You Rock! - Mon May 19, 2003 7:12 PM
And what about being a stumbling block?<br><br><center>[color:red]<font class="big">Testimonies of Young People and Christian Rock</font mu=big><br>"By their fruits ye shall know them..."</center></font color=red><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>"I was following the Lord wholeheartedly until we switched churches and I was invited to the new youth group. I had a conviction against rock music, but as I was surrounded by it, my beliefs were corrupted. This music eventually led to rebellion and moral failures. The Lord has gained victory in my life now, but the music still brings on rebellion if I listen to it. Please get rid of this music and play melodious, harmonious music!"<br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Pennsylvania <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' had made me a shallow, rebellious young Christian. It made it easy for me to get into regular rock music. When I finally submitted to God and got the rock music out of my life, I was able to see the double standard that is lived out by 'Christian rock' musicians.<br><br>" 'Christian rock' does not praise God and it is worse than regular rock because I think it is hypocritical. Rock is wrong and addictive and has contributed to my moral failure. I praise God for His help in releasing me from it."<br><br>An Eighteen-Year-Old Student From Indiana <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"About four years ago, a local Christian radio station began broadcasting 'rock' of the 'Christian variety.' At first, I accepted only the light stuff. Within months, I found myself listening to heavier and heavier stuff. I thank God that my parents and I came to an agreement on the music I will listen to. I can see how it has affected the lives of some who at one time were my closest friends. I still enjoy easy classical music, but they are into heavy worldly rock and the lifestyle that goes with it. Just a few weeks ago, God convicted me of what I once considered super-soft, contemporary music. I threw the tape away and thank God for the conviction that brought me to do it."<br><br>A Twenty-Year-Old Student From Kansas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I began to listen to 'Christian rock' without the blessing of my father. He told me that if I listened to 'Christian rock' it would open the door for Satan. I just laughed, and listened anyway. It totally deadened my Christian growth and led to terrible immorality, rebellion, and rejection of God. It then developed into secular, hard rock. Now all I can do is go back and pick up the pieces. But I still have a scar in my life that will never be removed." <br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Oklahoma <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>When I got into 'Christian' and secular rock, I went out from under my father's protection. I lost sleep, was rebellious, had a rotten attitude, and made life miserable for my parents. I also had major impure thoughts. I no longer listen to that music, and life is so much more enjoyable and I have much more spiritual victory. Whenever I hear this music, I get uptight and am tempted to get back into it. <br><br>Thank God I am not in it anymore."<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' has hindered my life because the only difference between 'Christian rock' and secular rock is the words. The beat, rhythm, and the melody are not different; they are the same. <br><br>"It does not matter whether I listen to secular or 'Christian rock,' when the songs are over, I feel the same. I feel an emptiness in my soul, a heavy burden. Even 'Christian rock' sometimes makes me feel like going out and getting rowdy or even hurting someone else if they provoke me, and that is against all of God's teachings, and everything God stands for. So get rid of all rock!!!"<br><br>A Twenty-One-Year-Old Student From Michigan <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I was twelve or thirteen years old, I was given some 'Christian rock' tapes by my parents to listen to because they thought I was getting into secular music. The truth is, I was getting into some bad music. The 'Christian rock' dominated my life for over a year until I could not get the same satisfaction I received the first time I heard it. I went to secular rock music and kept this desire and sin from my parents. I started out on soft music and grew to pop/rock-type music. <br><br>"It was not long until my desire grew to 'hard rock' and 'progressive' stuff. I started getting into drinking and going to dance clubs. Minor recreational drugs came in and soon my life was going down the drain. <br><br>"One night while drinking, I fell into immorality and my life was devastated. God used this tragedy to turn me around and bring me back to Him. I feel very deeply that if I had not started out in 'Christian rock' I would have been convicted about the bad music I got into. Maybe I would not have messed my life up so much." <br><br>An Eighteen-Year-Old Student From Oklahoma <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' was brought into my life earlier than my peers because of a weakness in my forefathers. I continually desired music that had a strong and fast beat. The music I started with was soft, slow, and contemporary, and it took over my life and I became dependent upon it rather than upon God. I did not realize it, but I was a lukewarm Christian, no matter how many times I sought God at the altar. Eventually, my parents saw the folly of Christian contemporary music and took it out of our home. After it was gone, the music took less precedence in my life, and God gave me the conviction to not listen to evil Christian contemporary music. He made me free in my soul!" <br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Illinois <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I was twelve I began listening to 'Christian rock.' My friends listened to it and I felt pressured to listen to it, too. I became addicted to the beat and slowly progressed until I was into 'heavy metal Christian.' I was talking to a boy in our church about rock music. He told me I listened to the same thing in 'Christian rock.' I decided to listen and find out for myself. The beat was exactly the same, and I quickly was addicted to rock. I have been working on conquering this, but when I hear any 'Christian rock' I immediately feel guilty and stay away from my parents." <br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Florida <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' at one time really messed up my view of Christianity. I would listen to it and think, 'Look how Christianity is trying to blend in with the world.' . . . I have totally avoided this music and have considered it ungodly and unscriptural!" <br><br>A Nineteen-Year-Old Student From Ohio <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I was thirteen, I had a friend who was in his twenties. He began helping my father, who was in charge of our youth group. The music he listened to was wrong, and as I became closer to this guy, I began to listen to his music and began to get deeper into it. Finally, it was to the point that it no longer satisfied the flesh and I wanted more. So I then started to listen to regular, secular rock music, and it caused moral failure in my life. <br><br>"I would warn anyone who would experiment with 'Christian rock' not to do so, or it is likely that the same result would happen to them. Thank you!"<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Michigan <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' was a big part of my life about six months ago. It totally consumed me. I lived in the bondage of this music and the bondage of the music of my friends' preference, which was not very good either, to say the least. I realized that this ungodly music did not glorify God and never will. <br><br>"The main things I learned this week are that we as Christians do not take drugs to witness to drug users, and we do not convert to worldly habits to identify with the world. So I saw no reason to use worldly music with Christian words so that I could minister to the world!"<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From California <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>When I used to listen to rock music it hindered my spirit and caused a rebellious attitude. I can tell you that when I hear 'Christian rock' music, it makes no difference what the lyrics are. It is the music that causes the poor spirit and rebellious attitude.<br><br>A Twenty-Year-Old Student From Oklahoma <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I never listened to the so-called 'Christian rock,' but I did listen to Christian contemporary music. I realized that all day long, when I was dressing or getting ready for bed, the songs were in my head. The backbeat and the music that was full of soft, then real loud notes made my whole body move faster. When all this was going on, I could never concentrate on studies, much less the Bible. It was distracting, and I also realized that when I would go into a store that had rock playing, I liked it, and it was a lot like the tapes I had been listening to." <br><br>An Eighteen-Year-Old Student From Florida <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"For many years I listened to 'Christian rock' and excused it because I was not listening to secular rock. I loved going to concerts and enjoying myself. Then I went to one 'Christian rock' concert, and one of the lead singers was dressed in a tank top and tight jeans. I was not sure what to do. I knew it was wrong, but I stayed anyway. When I got home my mom saw one of the pamphlets. She was shocked and said, "No more 'Christian rock'!" I was forced to obey, but later chose to obey, seeing how wrong the music was."<br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I became influenced in 'Christian rock' from some bad friends I had made. Every free minute I had was spent listening to this music. I felt really proud that everybody else was listening to regular rock and I was listening also, but mine had Christian lyrics. One day as I was listening to this music I switched the station to FM and I was shocked to hear the same song on a secular station! I have done some searching in my life and realized that this music was controlling my thoughts, and that because of it, I could not conquer the giant of lust. This week I realized that I would have to give up 'contemporary-Christian music' if I was going to have victory over the giant of lust!" <br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Missouri <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I got started listening to contemporary Christian music, I started out on 'mild' music, but it grew to harder music. It grew to the point where the music took the place of Bible reading. . . .it was addictive, and I held some back. Later, it was brought to my attention that when you cannot get rid of something in your life that keeps you from God, it is an idol. This music, which is supposed to promote Christianity, caused me to violate God's commandments about idolatry.<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Missouri <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I grew up in a good Christian home where my father was a pastor. I have a fourteen-year-old sister, and when she was in the third or fourth grade I remember her listening to the radio when my parents were away at the church. As I grew older I was constantly being convicted about my habits but could not get victory over them. <br><br>"As I grew older, I slowly grew from one type of music to another and finally to 'progressive' and 'new wave.' I despised myself secretly because of my music, but I took it out on my fellow Christians who listened to 'Christian rock,' because I could still get a 'high' from their music and it was supposed to be 'Christian.' Even now as I am finished with this unglorious music, I still have trouble with it when I hear it anywhere." <br><br>An Eighteen-Year-Old Student From Florida <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I began listening to 'Christian rock' my personal devotions were almost nonexistent. 'Christian rock' deafened my Christian 'immune system' (conscience) to rock music. When I listened to this music, I would fall away from and rebel against my parents.<br><br>"'Christian rock,' in my opinion, distorts hymns. I can remember a 'Christian rock' beat to most of the hymns I have sung. I strongly encourage not getting into this music."<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Missouri <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' and Christian contemporary music have, in my life, been stepping stones. Not stepping stones going up — but down. Just a few months of listening to 'Christian rock' and contemporary music led to a life of being controlled by acid rock. This quickly led to and encouraged rebellion, greed, moral impurity, and trying to protect my rights and hide from my parents. <br><br>"Now, however, I have become accountable to my father in this, and I am experiencing glorious victory over this satanic music. As I quit, however, I was tempted to get back into 'Christian rock,' because, after all, 'Christian rock' is better than heavy metal, I thought. The Lord in His grace, though, reminded me of the effects this music had on my life before, and I was able to overcome it. I thank God that He is leading me to victory."<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Pennsylvania <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I started listening to 'Christian rock' I slowly started to listen to just regular worldly rock (soft rock). Then I was listening to something harder and harder. It not only led me into worldly rock, but I was getting rebellious toward my parents, and I was having sensual and lustful thoughts. I also could not memorize or read God's Word and understand it or retain it.<br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Nebraska <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' has damaged my life in two ways. First, it ruined my Christian witness. The addictive beat and tempo were very hard for me to conquer. When I went to a friend's house, instead of being two friends together talking we would sit in his room and do nothing except allow the music to flow through us. Second, the beat and words are still a part of my life. Many times as I was listening to 'Christian rock,' my mind would go to the words of secular rock. Even now, after destroying all this wrong music and committing myself to God's music, I still have a rebellious attitude well up inside me. This will be a very hard habit to break."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Michigan <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I started listening to music I listened to 'Christian rock.' What got me into this was my friend who accidentally left a tape behind. I picked it up and listened to it. I was immediately hooked and listened to it constantly. About two weeks later I started listening to 'rock and roll.' I knew I shouldn't have listened, but I was hooked. I became rebellious toward authority and stole a Walkman" from my dad. I then became a stumbling block to other Christians and made them fall into the same sin. I knew I had to give up this music, so I purposed to. I told my dad and asked him to hold me accountable. Since that time I have been freed from this wicked sin and I feel great now." <br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Florida <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I listened to rock music for about four years and it was not 'Christian rock' because I always thought it was so hypocritical to listen to Christian rock. At least I was honest about it and I did not pretend to be somebody I wasn't.<br><br>"So, after the first couple of times I was already addicted to it. The reason I started is because everybody always thought I was, 'goody-goody.' They would say, 'Hey, did you hear that song?' or 'Have you ever heard this group?' I would say, 'No, I don't listen to rock.' "I began by listening to 'soft rock' and progressed to heavy metal. It really had a strong effect on my life. Now my church plays 'Christian rock' and I see it ruining many kids in our youth group. It is so sad. It has ruined kids that were so sweet."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I am very intimate with music. I was brought up in a strict Christian home, but I rebelled and moved away from home. While in the world I got ,into dance and choreography. All was very sensuous!<br><br>"The music we used was rock music, of course! After a while my body was so in tune with the music that it controlled me. After I gave my life back to God I was discouraged one particular day, so I turned on the local Christian radio station for some encouraging music. "Well, I don't remember one word except ,exalt.' All I know is that my sensuous feelings all came back with the beat and the spirit of the music. I can now say there is no such thing as 'Christian rock,' and this type of music should not be in one's house, much less in God's holy house of worship!"<br><br>A Nineteen-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I can honestly say that secular music does have a negative aspect to it. I had never really listened to or heard a pop rock song until I was about fourteen years of age. I was going through a really hard time in my life. We were moving again, on top of everything else. <br><br>"So I gave in and started listening to it every once in awhile. Immediately I noticed a change in my spiritual life. The music stunted my spiritual growth and my heart was becoming hardened. I realized that I must get away from it."<br><br>"As soon as that music leaves, you can feel an immediate change in attitudes and actions. You see, I believe God designed the world to conform to Christianity, not Christianity to the world. Please, please, don't pollute your minds or your spiritual life with this awful music. The same applies to 'Christian rock' music.<br><br>An Eighteen-Year-Old Student From Indiana <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I began with a high standard of music in my life. Through my youth group, that became watered down. I gradually began to build a collection of contemporary artists who professed to be Christians. As I collected more tapes and the music's beat became stronger, I became more rebellious. I believe that the so-called 'Christian music' led me into rebellion. During the Seminar, I was convicted of having wrong music influence my life. When I got home, I threw away all of my bad music tapes, which made up virtually my whole collection. I am relearning now how to have only Godly music in my home and not compromise in that area any longer."<br><br>A Nineteen-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>'Christian rock' music has divided my youth group. It has kept me in bondage spiritually, and my relationship with my sister has been deeply hurt. I see the rebellion in both of us after we are exposed to rock. Whenever I walk into my youth group, rock is being played. I feel Satan's control start to tighten. One of my closest friends has remarked about the difference in my countenance after I have listened to this music. I find it almost impossible to have beneficial, reverent quiet times when the sensual beat pops into my mind." <br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Georgia <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I have been struggling with a moral failure. After a time of defeat, I noticed that these devastating failures were coming after or during listening to 'soft rock' or 'Christian rock' music.<br><br>I now realize that I had seared my conscience in the area of music. The destructive rhythms bring a sensual awakening inside of me and this leads to alessening of inhibitions. Since asking for God's forgiveness and healing, becoming accountable to my parents, and removing these evil influences, I have experienced amazing victory and freedom!<br><br>"However, I still feel the danger in 'Christian rock' and its pull on my spirit. I wish every person would take this matter seriously because so much damage has been done to me. Consequences and scars remain that would have never happened if only I had been more alert to the dangers."<br><br>A Twenty-Year-Old Student From Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I personally don't like 'Christian rock,' but at the cafe where I work as a waitress, they have been playing it. Since I have been working there I have had no desire to pray or read the Bible or to even get to know the Lord. I believe that since I have been listening to 'Christian rock' it has subconsciously affected my spiritual growth.<br><br>"I have been on vacation for a week now and I have found that I desire to read my Bible and to pray since I have been away from 'Christian rock. ' "<br><br>A Twenty-Three-Year-Old Student From Wisconsin <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I have listened to rock music since I was a baby. It has had a definite bad impression on me. It makes me feel rebellious and I just have weird feelings when I play it. To me, 'Christian rock' is no different than regular rock. It still gives me those wrong feelings.<br><br>"I have gone to rock seminars and they say that rock is wrong but 'Christian rock' is OK. Well, I was sick of the way my life was going so I gave it all up and now I have such freedom!! I am so glad to be free!<br><br>"I would encourage anyone to purpose in their heart not to listen to it. Listen only to things that edify."<br><br>A Twenty-One-Year-Old Student From Washington <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"A couple of years ago while I was listening to rock music behind my parents' backs I became very suicidal. I could not figure out why, but I really reacted to the idea that my music might have something to do with it. It was only after confessing what I was doing to God and to my parents and thencutting off all rock music that I lost the desire to kill myself.<br><br>"God was very gracious to me and He saved me from that awful destructive music. I thank Him daily for that deliverance."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Kansas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I would like to share a little testimony concerning my experience with 'Christian rock' music. I had listened to this music with my friends and at church social functions for several years before I got my own tape, recorded by a famous artist. <br><br>"Buying that tape was the biggest mistake of my life. Under its influence, my moral convictions began to dissolve and I allowed myself to become involved in a relationship with a boy from my church, against my parents' wishes.<br><br>"When we were together we listened to 'Christian' and 'soft rock' music. It was all sensuous and destroyed my inhibitions. I am so ashamed of what happened.<br><br>"The music made me rebellious and pulled me away from my family. I thank God that I can say today that I have not listened to this harmful music for several months now and I feel a freedom I had not experienced before."<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student from Texas <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"In the past, rock 'n roll music has been so detrimental to my spiritual growth that I feel privileged to share this, especially if it could keep others from being subjected to this type of music. This includes 'contemporary Christian music.' Most people do not realize what a hold this music can have on you until you try to take it out of your life. <br><br>"When I got into secular rock music I was bombarded by many sensual thoughts. Those that think that 'Christian rock' is OK because of the words are wrong. When I listen to that type of 'Christian' music, I have the same reaction. I cannot listen to any type of this music because when I do, I can no longer worship God or grow in Him."<br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Ohio <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I need to give you my testimony on 'Christian rock' music. I am in a church where 'Christian rock' has come to be accepted and where we now have dances for the Senior High Youth Group. <br><br>"At first, my listening was reluctant and I didn't like the metallic, hard sound, but I grew numb to it the more I listened. Even one of my friends told me it wouldn't sound so bad after I listened to it enough! That is blunt for you!<br><br>"My dad REALLY didn't like this music and even told me that I needed to get rid of it. This was very hard. You know, this contemporary music is addictive. Many people can witness to this. Try taking rock away from one who's used to it and they go through withdrawal! I certainly did!<br><br>"But when I purposed to remain under my father's authority, I threw the tapes away and you wouldn't believe the freedom I felt! It was like a heavy burden was lifted off my shoulders! I'm telling you, I never even knew I was in bondage!<br><br>"I prayed that God would resensitize my spirit to discern the spirit of music. It did take a while but I'm a witness now of how rock music desensitizes a spirit. I'm free now, PRAISE THE LORD!!"<br><br>A Seventeen-Year-Old Student From Ohio <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' music has probably been the biggest hindrance to my spiritual growth. When I first heard this kind of music, it really bothered my spirit. But then this music was brought into my church. The more I heard it, the less it bothered me. The less it bothered me, the more I listened to it.<br><br>"It wasn't long before I was involved in secular rock music because I didn't see any difference. This music caused me to resist the Lord and hold parts of my life back from Him. I was not able to have a freedom to truly serve Him and be totally dedicated to Him until I was willing to give up this music."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Florida <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"On September 2, 1989, I went to a 'Christian rock' concert. While I was there, I danced, screamed, and sang in ways that were displeasing to God. I have many contemporary Christian music tapes, and I find when I listen to them that I get a rebellilous spirit. <br><br>"I am so ashamed of the things that I did while under the influence of this music. I PLEAD with you to rid yourself of this bad influence."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Missouri <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"When I was not following the Lord I was angry because of the compromise Christians were making in the matter of 'Christian rock' music.<br><br>"Personally, I cannot tell the difference between 'rock' and 'Christian rock.' Since I rededicated my life to the Lord and quit listening to both types of music, I have had a wonderful freedom in my thought life." <br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From Oklahoma <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"'Christian rock' has always been a source of battle within me. I could never go anywhere without rock music haunting me. I could not be comfortable anywhere. The music brought so much tension and lack of inner peace that I ended up in total depression, which was completely removed by taking rock and contemporary music out of my life."<br><br>A Fifteen-Year-Old Student From California <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I began listening to rock music on the bus to public school. I went to Christian friends' homes, and they would have their rock tapes and radios on constantly. I began to grow numb to the sound and the words and became comfortable listening to it.<br><br>"Finally I became interested in hearing what the singers were really saying. I was going through a really depressing and rebellious time by now, so I would fill my boredom and emotional times by secretly listening to 'rock.' I mean, everyone else did.<br><br>"My parents even gave me a dual cassette stereo system for memorizing Matthew 5-7. However, many of the tapes I ignorantly played caused sensual problems for me.<br><br>"A couple of months later when I got my life in tune with the Lord, I was convicted about my music. So one night I came home from church and took out the tapes I was recording off the radio and strung them out all over my bedroom floor and then took them out to the trash and pitched them. I was so released, I broke down and cried. Praise the Lord."<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Indiana <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"I began listening to 'Christian rock,' and shortly thereafter I began a fast, steady pace downhill. This eventually led me into a totally backslidden state.<br><br>"I know that my own rebellion was the cause Of my fall. However, 'Christian rock' entered into my life at a very crucial point and added fuel to the fire. I remember the specific day and the song I listened to first. I remember feeling rebellious — like I was going against what is considered acceptable by the standards of Godly people.<br><br>"Within weeks, maybe months, a very apparent breakdown of my conscience, morality, and appearance was evident. As I stated before, within two years I had completely fallen away from the Lord.<br><br>"Today I am serving the Lord, yet I still have a tremendously difficult time resisting the temptation of listening to the music of my past-Christian or secular. When I hear this music it causes me to reminisce fondly of my past, and I completely forget the darkness I was delivered from. This dismisses the love, forgiveness, and power of my Lord in my life.<br><br>"I appeal to Church leaders today.... I plead with you to purge your churches, youth groups, and homes of rock and roll. Without going into further detail of my own life, it is my hope that the sins of my past can be used as a testimony for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.<br><br>"I pray that the devastating results of rock music will be realized in the Church before it steals anymore of the souls of our youth."<br><br>A Nineteen-Year-Old Student From California <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"Our youth group has had a problem of not growing spiritually for a long time now. This problem did not come from outward influences, but inward moral decay. A big factor in this was the rock music the kids were listening to outside of the church.<br><br>"Unfortunately, I was one of those kids. I can personally testify that rock music is not what it seems to be. Once you start listening to it, you accept it, not only the music itself, but also the words. You become numb to worse and worse lyrics. and you can't break out of the addiction.<br><br>"Pretty soon, I was accepting totally opposite lyrics to what I was supposed to be standing for. I didn't realize that a big problem in my spiritual life came from my addiction to rock music. It was as if I had a big wall between me and God, and it was because I was living a hypocritical life. I was accepting the awful standards that rock music presented, but I was telling everybody else I was a Christian.<br><br>"I was lying through my teeth. The only way I can say this now is that through the grace of God, I was able to see what was happening. I have now given this area of my life to God and now I feel a freedom I never had before. God is so good!"<br><br>A Sixteen-Year-Old Student From Missouri
Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 7:25 PM
Joe,<br><br>The comments in your post are of a personal nature. These include comments such as <br>1. "ever hear of election"<br>2. "get real Steve"<br>3. accusing the poster (me) of not reading the material<br>4. "Well as usual you have failed to read all the material", which implies that the poster (i.e. me) is one who rarely reads the material. <br><br>I would like to discuss your final comment. ( And may I add those who are truly in Christ will seek to serve Him with music that glorifies Him. May God have mercy on those that think and do otherwise and bring them to the truth once delivered to the saints. ) <br><br>It seems that you consider those who enjoy and play such music are unsaved? <br><br>I say this because:<br><br>If A then B<br>Where A = one truly in Christ<br>and B = he/she will seek to serve Him with music that glorifies Him<br><br>If (one is truly in Christ) then (he/she will seek to serve Him with music that glorifies Him).<br><br>Not B, thus Not A<br><br>Since (metalheads are not seeking to serve Him with music that glorifies Him), then (metalheads are not truly in Christ).<br><br><br>It is possible that is not what you meant, and if so, please feel free to say so! The last thing I want to do is misrepresent your position here!<br>I've thought about this post for a while, and I'm hoping the key word is "seeking"; i.e. maybe your position is that <br>"metalheads are seeking to serve him with music that glorifies God but are deluded in thinking that the music they are playing/listening to really does glorify God." But I don't want to put words in your mouth.<br><br>Blessings,<br>Steve
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 7:44 PM
The feel sorry for me approach is not an argument for truth.

In reply to:
It seems that you consider those who enjoy and play such music are unsaved? .

This Steve was your assumption and wrong, but I do believe that they have failed to listen to the whole counsel of God and are thus in sin!! Your whole argument is wrestling against God's Word not me. You are assuming things are in the Word of God promoting your stance for Rock Music, when there is none. Either accept or reject the Word of God. You have failed to supply ANY biblical warrant for Rock Music.

I think this shall be may last response to your posts here for a while at least. Maybe when you have reviewed the articles posted and have come to grips with the Word of God a little more, we may re-discuss it.

Posted By: li0scc0 Re: Christian Metalcore - Mon May 19, 2003 8:24 PM
Hey Joe, good evening to ya!

That is totally fine if you don't want to continue this discussion. I'm not posting this to "get the last word" as you once stated, but simply to respond to your last post.

I was not trying the "feel sorry for me" approach. I did not understand why you need to use ad hominem attacks.

As for the articles, yes, I have read them all, 2x each! Just because I read it, doesn't mean I bought the arguments, as a previous post of mine on this thread stated (I did concede that one of the authors had some great points!) After reading, I don't see any Scriptural warrant for or against Christian Metal. The best arguments against rock music were psychological or scientific, many based on outdated studies. But still, some good points!

I'm not sure why I am bothering with these posts, because I personally can't stand popular Christian music (because it is so "bubble-gummy").

Blessings,
Steve

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Tue May 20, 2003 12:34 AM
Just my final thought and opinion.
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Ever heard of election. He only makes some godly not all, thus not all music is godly, only that which He has “elected” that will glorify Him.

And so just because some MEN, men being fallible human beings, took scripture and backed their ideas with it and because some scientists and doctors, all, again, fallible men, came to some conclusions that also halped back the position, that means that God was behind it? I can't see that. Just as in salvation, we can't tell who the elect are, the same is true for music. Who are we, as fallible human beings, to say what God has elected and otherwise to use to glorify His Name (within obvious boundaries of course)? I don't discredit men by saying this, don't get me wrong. But I don't necessarily hold some studies and people's individual experiences to any kind of authority on par with scripture. One person's experience may not be another's, and yet they both may be truthful. Personally, I don't think the music is bad IN ITSELF, but I do think that some of the people who preform it are bad. It says in Romans 14,

[color:blue]Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:13-15 NASB)
Posted By: James Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 7:54 AM
Steve has raised some good points. I do not find scriptural warrant for any genre of music but I do find the descendants of Cain were the first musicians. I don't understand this to mean all music is bad but rather that God's common grace (oh no, not that term!) is at work in human creativity. <br><br>Certainly human creativity can be and is misused but echoes of humanity in the image of God and His goodness to us are present nonetheless. After all, is there such a thing as any piece of music written by a Christian who would say all his motives were totally godly in producing it? <br><br>Certainly too listening to or producing music in such a way as to damage hearing is breaching the sixth commandment. That can be cured by turning the volume down!<br><br>I wonder why if those who reject rock listen happily to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony oblivious to the humanism of its final movement?<br><br>Yours in Christ (and heading for cover),<br><br>James.<br><br>PS Note use of irony of the British type above rather than literalism!
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 10:03 AM
In reply to:
I do not find scriptural warrant for any genre of music but I do find the descendants of Cain were the first musicians. I don't understand this to mean all music is bad but rather that God's common grace (oh no, not that term!) is at work in human creativity.

Well, were Cain descendent's the first to sing? I would say not. Since, the protoevangel of Genesis 3:15, it would have been biblical for Adam, Eve, and others to sing to the Lord (it is probable also to believe that Adam and Eve worshipped prior to this as they fellowshipped with God in the Garden). God puts a new song in the heart of His regenerate (Psa 33:1-3; 42:3, et. al.). The regenerate heart desires to glorify God.

Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Cain is not IMHO a model for Christian behavior! He and his would be more akin, according to their nature, to be the first Elvis’ musicians and not the first Elohim musicians. If anything I would look at the musicians of Cain as the first perversion of music, taking what God had put in the heart of His regenerate and using it to praise another. This would be in keeping with their nature.

In reply to:
Certainly human creativity can be and is misused but echoes of humanity in the image of God and His goodness to us are present nonetheless. After all, is there such a thing as any piece of music written by a Christian who would say all his motives were totally godly in producing it?

So, the songs of David (and other biblical music writers) have the wrong motivations behind them? Thus, some parts of the Word of God have the wrong motivation behind it, though God is glorified by them? confused

May God have mercy!

Posted By: James Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 10:45 AM
Dear Joe,<br><br>I fear we are having difficulty keeping focused on the issue of whether any genre of music is inherently sinful. <br><br>Please don't think I deny that Christians want to praise God in song. I agree it is good for them to do so. The reference to Cain's decendants was simply because that is the first reference to music in the Bible.<br><br>As for David, what we have is his words, not his music. I am not denying his words were inspired by God and are perfectly above reproach. (Mind you, some scriptures were not produced with pure motives, take Jeremiah's laments which God rebuked as an example). I am not aware though that any church confession requires us to believe that his music was similarly inspired. In any case we don't have it.<br><br>My point was that all Christians are redeemed sinners and that none of us ever acts with perfectly pure motives. Thus no act we ever carry out for God is pure and perfect in and of itself. Thus if we are defining acceptable music as only that which was produced with pure motives, nothing will pass the test.<br><br>Yours in Christ,<br><br>James.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 11:11 AM
In reply to:
Thus if we are defining acceptable music as only that which was produced with pure motives, nothing will pass the test.

Perhaps in your zeal to defend the ungodliness of certain "genres" of music you have failed to read ALL the replies here, at least the ones I wrote (not that mine should be given any preference), where I EXPLICITLY stated that "motives" are NOT necessarily relevant to the morality of music. Many times I stressed that there are biblical principles which need to be applied, God's nature and attributes must be the standard of what is "glory" (reflective of Him), and the rules of music theory should also be used in judging music. This is not to say that the "motives" (intent) of the composer can be totally ignored. For indeed, they are many times the actual source of the composition of which the composer desired to produce a certain emotive result. Such is the nature of all "Rock" music. The "artists" (oxymoron) KNOW, evidently far better than some Christians, that if you arrange musical notes in a certain pattern they will effect a human being a certain way. The result is that the "music" will capture the listener's "soul", although most have no belief in a soul, and make them money. These "emotions" which they aim to evoke are those which we call "base" or "primal". All one needs to do is observe the actions/reactions of listeners when the music is played sans lyrics. I would hardly call the bodily movements that are naturally expressed, which we can empirically observe, godly.

Motives are no guarantee that the intended purpose is going to be successful. For example, you obviously thought that using Beethoven's 9th Symphony, and I am going to assume you are referring particularly to the Chorale "Ode to Joy", would somehow be evidence that even the best of music written is no better than some "Metal Head's" satanic composition? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] It isn't the LYRICS which is being discussed, which are quite simple to judge compared to the musical "genre". Apart from the "Ode to Joy", the MUSICAL COMPOSITION of Beethoven's 9th Symphony is without doubt glorifying to God by the OBJECTIVE standards of the biblical principles relevant, conformity to God's nature and attributes, and by musicology. Whether one "likes" the symphony is irrelevant, although the reason one dislikes it may be an indication of where one is spiritually. For if one rejects such pieces of music because they find them "boring", then this does reveal that the individual is looking and needing that "emotional fix"; that emotional "high" which "Rock-style" music produces and was designed to do.

Oh..... you can [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img], but you can't hide! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]

In His Grace,

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Tue May 20, 2003 3:50 PM
[Linked Image]<br><br>[Linked Image]<br><br><br>I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole....just thought it could use some lightening up<br><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: Christian Metalcore - Tue May 20, 2003 5:03 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole</font><hr></blockquote><p> Did you mean a ten foot drum stick [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>I see you have caught on very well how to post those "gif" images [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img]
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Christian Metalcore - Tue May 20, 2003 5:16 PM
Hey...I do what I can <br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thankyou.gif" alt="thankyou" title="thankyou[/img]<br><br>Humbly Yours,
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 5:39 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Whether one "likes" the symphony is irrelevant, although the reason one dislikes it may be an indication of where one is spiritually. For if one rejects such pieces of music because they find them "boring", then this does reveal that the individual is looking and needing that "emotional fix"; that emotional "high" which "Rock-style" music produces and was designed to do.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I am just asking a question here, and if I am off topic, let me know, but is it wrong to desire to have your emotions stirred? Not all rock music that I have heard makes me angry. Some makes me feel happy. Same with reading Christian literature. Some Christian literature makes me happy. But if someone doesn't like to read Augustine or John Piper, then they aren't going to have the same emotional response to it as I would. Some hymns in our hymnals, the music is such that it makes one happy and makes one sad. Is this wrong too? I am just asking questions. Not for the purpose of debate. This post just stood out to me.<br><br>
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 6:17 PM
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]but is it wrong to desire to have your emotions stirred?

No, there is nothing wrong with one's emotions being stirred. However, certain kinds of music, because of the way they are designed, will stir the emotions which are not godly. ALL music moves the emotions. This is what we have been trying to get across to you. EVERYONE knows that some musical forms go directly to the emotive part of man and bypass the intellect entirely. And those emotions which are stirred are contrary to what the Scriptures teach are good, wholesome, pure, etc. It is also a truism, that good hymns, those songs which are designed for worship, first and foremost are those which penetrate the intellect with their biblical themes. These themes are to be doctrinally accurate etc... And, the music part of the hymn should be simply an accompaniment; i.e., it is complimentary in that it emphasizes the words and does not call attention to itself. Thus a good hymn is first taken in by the mind and the truths which it speaks of through the lyrics stimulates the emotions so that the entire person is given over to worship; mind, emotions and body.

All these contemporary forms of music are DESIGNED to go directly to the emotive element of man. They do not and cannot move a person to worship the true living God as He has declared Himself to be and in the manner which He has revealed. They become like a drug; addictive and like drugs, they cloud the mind. Consequently, inhibitions are broken down and the beat of the music captures the soul and what results is hardly Christlike. Today, this phenomena is called "freedom of expression"! It screams "autonomy" and is contrary to that which the Scriptures teach concerning one being a slave to righteousness as opposed to being a slave to sin and one's depravity. Again, I ask you..... can you honestly say that the emotions which are stirred up and expressed by those who attend these "Heavy Metal", "Punk Rock", "ska" concerts are expressive of what the Bible calls "holy"? "pure"?, "chaste"? etc.

"As a man thinketh, so is he . . ." (Prov 23:7) What picture of God is being portrayed at these types of concerts?

"In the beginning, God created man is His own image. And ever since that day, man has been trying to return the favor."

"All men become like the objects of their worship. Our inward character is being silently moulded by our view of God and our conception of him. Christian character is the fruit of Christian worship; pagan character the fruit of pagan religion; semi-Christian character the fruit of a half-true understanding of God. The principle holds good for us all: we become like what we worship ­ for worse or for better. 'They that make them are like unto them' (Psa. 115:8)." — Maurice Roberts
In His Grace,
Posted By: gotribe Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 9:04 PM
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]"As a man thinketh, so is he . . ." (Prov 23:7) What picture of God is being portrayed at these types of concerts?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>IMO, this is all one needs to consider to know if this is pleasing to God. Simple, eh? <br>
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 9:35 PM
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]IMO, this is all one needs to consider to know if this is pleasing to God. Simple, eh?

[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/yep.gif" alt="yep" title="yep[/img] Very simple indeed! [Linked Image] So, it would seem that you are saying that we don't need nobody to tell us 'bout nuttin. All we need is to "think" what we are doin' is pleasin' to God and it is, eh? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]

Well, I sure hope this is NOT what you are suggesting. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] First of all that text from Proverbs is teaching something entirely foreign to this idea. What it is saying that the very heart of man is expressed in his thoughts. Thus if a person thinks he is worshiping God through "Metalcore" or during a drug "high", etc., it reveals the doctrine of God that this person has. It is NOT saying that whatever you "think" is right, is right or any such novelty. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] In the N.T. the Lord Christ made a similar statement: Matthew 24:28 (KJV) "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." In the not so distant past, there was a saying that went, "You can always tell a man by the clothes he wears." Now, granted, the uninspired adages can be poked full of holes to suit one's purposes if the heat is turned up. But the truth that all these sayings are conveying is that men will express themselves outwardly according to what they believe (think) inwardly. The doctrine of total depravity and conversely of regeneration teach the same truth..... man is able to choose and will only choose that which is most important to him at any particular moment. That is, the nature of man dictates what he will say and choose.

So, it isn't what a person's intention is that determines what some act truly is or in this particular issue, if it is glorifying to God or proper worship. A person can run around buck naked through the streets and adamantly declare that he is just communing with God in nature, etc.. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] We need an OBJECTIVE standard by which to judge ALL THINGS.... and that one standard is the Scriptures.

"Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers." - John Owen (1616-1683)
In His Grace,
Posted By: Wes Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Tue May 20, 2003 10:28 PM
Well everybody's said a lot and a lot of emotion has been put into this thread. There are some very interesting links here on the Highway that address this topic too. You may want to see what others have written about this topic.<br><br>Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word by Leonard Payton<br><br>Worship in the Melting Pot by Dr. Peter Masters where he writes about the contrast between "Sacred or Profane Worship?"<br><br>There's an interesting article here on the Highway that talks about Pleasing God In Our Worship. It's by Dr. Robert Godfrey and worth the read. Here's a section of that article:<br><br><blockquote>[color:blue]Music and Worship</font color=blue><br><br>Of all the battles in the worship wars, the battle over music probably has been the most evident and the most emotional. Changes in the style of music have divided, frustrated, and even angered worshipers. Should we sing old hymns or praise choruses? Should the music be classical, traditional, folk, rock, contemporary, country and western, or what? Should we use organs and pianos, or guitars and drums? Is music exclusively for praise in the service, or does it have other functions as well? The amount of time given to music in many services has increased greatly. Some services begin with a lengthy time of singing called “praise and worship,” as if singing alone were worship and the rest of the service were something else.<br><br>What are we to make of these matters?<br><br>A change in music — whether to something older or newer — is difficult because most worshipers are not musicians and simply like what is familiar to them. Most worshipers are not motiated by some aesthetic theory, but by the emotional links they have to their familiar music. Because music so powerfully engages and expresses our emotions, it is not surprising that it is an emotional minefield for individuals and congregations.<br><br>As with all ways of worship, we must evaluate music in the first place biblically. We must stand back from our own experiences and preferences and ask again, “What pleases God?” We should recognize that not all music and praise pleases him. Think of the worship and praise that Israel offered to God in the wilderness at Mount Sinai. They made a golden calf, called it the Lord, and danced around it (Exod. 32:4-6). Such praise was an abomination to God and evoked his wrath! We must carefully seek what the Bible says about how we should praise the Lord and make music to him.<br><br>When we think of music in the worship of God, we are really thinking of three issues: 1) the words that we sing, 2) the tunes to which we sing those words, and 3) the instruments we might use to accompany the singing.<br><br>The Words We Sing<br><br>Of these three issues the first is the most important. The words we take upon our lips to sing to God must be true and pleasing to him. The Cambridge Declaration reminds us that one of the problems we face today is what we sing: “Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, including the doctrinal content of music.” How can we be sure that the words we sing please God? God has given us direction by giving us in the Bible a whole book as a model for what we are to sing. The Book of Psalms (which in Hebrew is entitled the Book of Praises) provides us with songs that God himself has inspired. The Psalms should at least function as the model for what we as Christians sing to God.<br><br>The Songs We Use<br><br>What do the Psalms teach about song? First, they remind us of the rich variety of songs that we can and should present to God. The Psalms contain joyful praise and thanksgiving. The Psalms are called the Book of Praises because they not only contain but also culminate in the praise of God (see especially Pss. 146—150.) But the Psalms contain more than praise. Some Psalms reflect on creation (for example, Pss. 19 and 104); others recount the great saving work of God in Christ (Pss. 2, 22, 24, and 110); still others meditate on the perfections of God’s revealed Word (especially Ps. 119). There are Psalms of lamentation and repentance (Pss. 32, 51, and 137) as well as Psalms that express the confusion and frustration that God’s people sometimes experience living in this fallen world (Pss. 44 and 73). John Calvin rightly observed about the Psalter, “There is not an emotion of which any one can be conscious that is not here presented as in a mirror.”<br><br>In some churches today it seems that only happy, joyful songs are sung. But joy is not the only emotion that Christians experience. Christian worship needs to provide times when sad or reflective emotions are expressed as well as happy ones. A variety of song texts, as we find them in the Psalter, are crucial for that purpose.<br><br>Second, the Psalms also model for us the substance of our singing. A few Psalms are short and have repetitive elements, but most are full, rich, profound responses to God and his work. Singing praise to God, the Psalter reminds us, is not just emotional expression, but a real engagement of the mind. Songs that are very repetitive or shallow and sentimental do not follow the model of the Psalter. The command to love God with all our mind must inform our singing. Mind and emotions together are the model of praise presented to us in the Psalms, and the modern church must work at restoring that union where it has been lost.<br><br>Once we recapture a proper sense of the texts we ought to sing, the other two issues about singing are relatively easy to resolve. What tunes shall we sing? We may use any tune that is singable for a congregation and that supports the content of the song. The tune should reflect the mood and substance of the song in light of the joy and reverence that are appropriate to worship. With those guidelines in mind (and a sensitivity to the congregation’s difficulty with change), the issue of tunes for songs should be resolved smoothly.<br><br>What Kind of Instruments?<br><br>What kind of musical accompaniment is biblical? In Old Testament worship a wide range of instruments was used in the worship of the temple. Yet in the worship of the church it appears that for almost the first thousand years of its history no instruments were used in Christian worship. Today most churches use one or more instruments. But where instruments are used, the instruments should aid the singing of the congregation, not overwhelm it. They should contribute to a deep spirit of reverence and joy, not undermine it.<br><br>Nowhere in the New Testament church are instruments clearly used for worship. They certainly have no central or independent role in worship. At most they should support the singing that the congregation is commanded to do. If that is their purpose, rock bands would be clearly inappropriate for Christian worship, but either an organ or a guitar might be used.<br><br>Music is a powerful and vital element in the worship life of God’s people. But precisely because it is so significant, we need to give careful thought to it. We must be sure that we are pleasing God and not entertaining ourselves. The temptation to turn worship into entertainment is great because as sinners we are much more inclined to be self-centered than God-centered. We are much more inclined to amuse ourselves than to serve God.</blockquote>We must be sure that we are pleasing God and not entertaining ourselves. It's more than just the words but the melody too that should be pleasing to God.<br><br>Wes<br>
Posted By: gotribe Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Wed May 21, 2003 12:12 AM
You may rest assured that that is NOT what I meant! Poor choice of words, apparently! I was agreeing with you; one look at the environment, the overall sense of what is going on is enough to see that this cannot be pleasing to God! God is Holy and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. The "spirit" exhibited in such an environment, music included, does not line up with the truth of scriptures. It is the spirit of the world.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But the truth that all these sayings are conveying is that men will express themselves outwardly according to what they believe (think) inwardly</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Right. My point was that the expression was a clear indication of the inward belief. Sorry I was not more clear.<br><br><br>
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Wed May 21, 2003 12:37 AM
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thanks.gif" alt="thanks" title="thanks[/img] for the clarification. Admittedly, when I read your reply, I was somewhat confused and thought I should extrapolate a bit to clear away any possibility of confusion. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>
Posted By: gotribe Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Wed May 21, 2003 1:26 AM
That's OK. Sometimes I forget that you all don't know me and my way of talking; often short and sweet. My friends have learned to "fill in the blanks!" I consider you friends here. If I posted more often, you'd learn to fill in my blanks, too. (More likely I would learn to be more precise!)
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Wed May 21, 2003 1:57 AM
And, again, this may be off topic, so just let me know if it is. The quote from the article in the last post, to me, came acoss like the organ and the piano are the only appropriate instruments to be used in congregational worship. And I have pondered this idea for some time. But doesn't that exclude some instruments used in the Bible? Cuz the Bible mentions tamborines and harps and just the vague mention of "stringed instruments". Does this mean that a guitar can be used? I happen to think a guitar is a beautiful addition to some hymns. Same with some kinds of drums. <br><br>I ask a final question and make a final thought. Who are we to say what instruments are good and bad in song worship? And who are we to say what arrangement of the music is bad? Yes the music should not overpower the words or the message in a congergational singing time, but since when are we allowed to say that God likes or dislikes certain instruments or arrangements simply because of what tradition dictates?
Posted By: Wes Re: Where angels fear to tread..again - Wed May 21, 2003 12:55 PM
Kalled2Preach,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The quote from the article in the last post, to me, came acoss like the organ and the piano are the only appropriate instruments to be used in congregational worship.</font><hr></blockquote><p>If you read all the links I have provided you will realize that these pastors have a lot more to say about music in worship than what choice of instrument is used. These instruments should contribute to a deep spirit of reverence and joy, not undermine it.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Who are we to say what instruments are good and bad in song worship? And who are we to say what arrangement of the music is bad?</font><hr></blockquote><p>If you really believe that after all that's been said and written on this topic apparently you're not paying attention. Another article worth reading is Dr. Peter Masters, “Let The Lord Define Worship”.<br><br><center>May the words of our mouths <br>and the meditation of our hearts <br>be acceptable in His sight.</center><br><br>Wes<br>
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