The Highway

Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k

Posted By: Tom

Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:03 PM

I was told that the case of the Christian Oregon Baker who refused to cater a gay wedding went to court and the judge ordered the baker to pay 135k to the couple.

My question, is should they pay it?
What other recourse do they have?

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tom
I was told that the case of the Christian Oregon Baker who refused to cater a gay wedding went to court and the judge ordered the baker to pay 135k to the couple.

My question, is should they pay it?
What other recourse do they have?

Would you pay the $135,000 punishment order?

1. The question first to be answered by you is... what do you mean by "should"? Is your question one of morals or one of legality?

2. They have the right to appeal. And IF there is a lawyer/legal firm willing to take the case pro bono, then it should go to the Supreme Court where they might prevail because the First Amendment (freedom of religion) takes precedence over the hurt feelings or claim of prejudice or whatever the alleged "offended" parties insist they suffered.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by Tom
I was told that the case of the Christian Oregon Baker who refused to cater a gay wedding went to court and the judge ordered the baker to pay 135k to the couple.

My question, is should they pay it?
What other recourse do they have?

Would you pay the $135,000 punishment order?

1. The question first to be answered by you is... what do you mean by "should"? Is your question one of morals or one of legality?

2. They have the right to appeal. And IF there is a lawyer/legal firm willing to take the case pro bono, then it should go to the Supreme Court where they might prevail because the First Amendment (freedom of religion) takes precedence over the hurt feelings or claim of prejudice or whatever the alleged "offended" parties insist they suffered.


Would I pay the $335,000? Would I have a choice? Would the courts have a right to either garnishee my wages; or sent me to jail if I refused?

1. Maybe "should" is the wrong word. Morally I do not believe they should. Legally, I am not sure if there is a choice other than go to jail.
2..Hopeully they are appealing and personally a Christian lawyer knowing the ramifications of the case would take it on. However, even if the baker win's his case in Supreme Court; the liberal establishment seems bent on changing the world view away from the world view that our nations were established on. Of course, God is still sovereign even if that happens and history proves that Christianity flourishes when it is being persecuted.

By the way, I found out fairly recently a large family in our Church moved to Belize, because there is more freedom for Christians there.

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:03 AM

You ALWAYS have a choice.The first 'choice' is ALWAYS to obey God rather than man when man requires you to do that which God has forbidden or forbids you to do what God commands. There are consequences, of course, for being a true and faithful follower of Christ Jesus even the losing of your life. Many (most?) today have no resolve to be consistent to their alleged profession of faith. Pragmatism and the use of situation ethics is how they deal with such things. The word "principle" barely exists in the English language nowadays. [Linked Image]

Quote
Acts 4:18-20 (ASV) And they called them, and charged them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to hearken unto you rather than unto God, judge ye: for we cannot but speak the things which we saw and heard."

Acts 5:17,18,27-29,40 (ASV) "But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, and laid hands on the apostles, and put them in public ward.And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.... And to him [Gamalial] they agreed: and when they had called the apostles unto them, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go."

Was it $135,000 or $335,000? shrug
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:25 PM

Sorry I meant $135,000.
What I meant by choice is they could garnishee his wages; forcing him to pay. Other than that, he would go to jail.
Perhaps, those two consequences are the best choice for the Christian?
Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:51 PM

Again, one is free to choose and will choose that which is most important in any given circumstance. The consequences may determine what most will thus choose.

[Linked Image] for a Christian, the only choice available will always be that which is what God has commanded or forbid regardless of the circumstances. In the case of the Baker(s), what they did was correct; refusing to participate in the gay marriage celebration. Barring a successful appeal, it makes no difference if they refused to comply with the order to pay $135,000. The judgment would be fulfilled by any means available to the court. This is simply the consequence of doing the right thing and should not influence the decision. God rewards one's faithfulness to Him when persecuted.

Personally, I would not voluntarily comply with the judgment. It was ethically and morally bankrupt, never mind illegal for the court to rule against their 1st Amendment right which guarantees freedom of religion. But even with such laws which currently exist in Canada and are slowly making gains here in the U.S. which are touted as "Hate Speech/Crimes", just because a court judges one has violated such laws when no hate was existent with the one being prosecuted doesn't mean that the true victim, the one accused, is guilty of doing wrong. GOD is the true Judge and before whom all will have to given an account. A human judge is one I would gladly oppose and resist for doing right than to have to stand before the Supreme Judge for doing wrong.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:26 AM

I can't tell tone; but just in case you are thinking I am advocating pragmatism or situational ethics. I want to assure you that that is not my intention at all.
I am just trying to think this through biblically. I think I can agree with everything you said here and I would hope that if it was me that needed to make a choice such as this, that I would have the courage to obey God rather than man.
I hope you understand why I started this thread?

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:48 AM

It's probably a good thing you did start this thread because doubtless there are some who would not have been privy to what has happened to this professing Christian family due to the concerted and targeted efforts of the gay agenda. Doubtless, this is just the beginning for this type of attack... and I do mean ATTACK. For it is a direct attack upon religion in general and Christianity specifically by various groups including the political Left. I would remind everyone of Paul's sober reminder and truth to his protege Timothy:

Quote
2 Timothy 3:12-17 (ASV) "Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." (cf. Matt 5:10-12; 10:22-25; 16:24; Jh 15:19-21; 17:14; Acts 14:22; Heb 11:32-38; 1Pet 2:20; 3:14; 4:12-16; 5:9,10; Rev 7:14)
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:13 AM

Thank you for this discussion; I for one find it helpful to discuss these things with likeminded Christians. It is so easy to feel helpless in issues like this; yet with likeminded believers we can share each other’s burdens and help each other to think biblically.
I am sure you already know this; but the baker case is definitely not the only one in North America. For example, there is the case of Trinity Western University in British Columbia Canada where the university wanted to offer a Lawyer program. The Law Society of Canada, said because of the Universities standard of marriage being between one woman and one man; as well as insisting that as long as both staff and students are at the university they must abstain from premarital sex; they turned them down.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...rsity-amid-claims-of-gay-discrimination/
Also, recently in Alberta a Christian couple applied to adopt a child, but was refused because in the questionnaire they were asked what their view of marriage was. They stated that marriage was between one man and one woman. Apparently, the ruling said that this made them unfit to be parents.
http://calgaryherald.com/life/paren...tion-nixed-over-their-views-on-sexuality
Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:40 PM

These type of immoral and/or political judgments are guarded in the United States by the First Amendment of the Constitution. Whether or not a specific court/judge would uphold the freedom of religion as found in the First Amendment is another matter. However, the Supreme Court of the United States is duty bound to strike down all and any infringement of the freedom of religion as found in the First Amendment. But the SCOTUS has been known to do just the opposite when the majority of the judges of that court were liberal, e.g., Roe vs. Wade and the more recent ruling that gay marriage is to be allowed.

Quote
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In regard to Trinity Western University, IF this university is the recipient of government funding, or it is designated as a non-profit organization, or it has any other ties whatsoever with the government, then it thus becomes subject to the dictates of that government. This is why there is an increasing concern, at least in the U.S., by churches whether or not to opt out of the "tax exempt" status they have or are considering. The government could then regulate what could be said, written or a particular practice in the church.
Posted By: Anthony C.

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:45 PM

Rod D. of American Conservative lays it out... All the sciences and societies are conforming to their religion...including civil law.... Don't think our Constitution won't fully fold eventually and soon....


Quote
It is impossible for orthodox Christians to separate sexuality from what the human person is. As Sherif explains, this is also the view of the Sexual Revolutionaries. The Sexual Revolution is best seen as like a different religion — a Gnostic one. He is not being snarky here, but explaining what this looks like from the point of view of traditional Christianity. I’m not going to quote it at too much length, but I strongly urge you to read it. He’s exactly right. Exactly.

More:

"It’s not that the New Gnostics are an especially vindictive bunch. It’s that a certain kind of coercion is built into their view from the start. If your most valuable, defining core just is the self that you choose to express, there can be no real difference between you as a person, and your acts of self-expression; I can’t affirm you and oppose those acts. Not to embrace self-expressive acts is to despise the self those acts express. I don’t simply err by gainsaying your sense of self. I deny your existence, and do you an injustice. For the New Gnostic, then, a just society cannot live and let live, when it comes to sex. Sooner or later, the common good—respect for people as self-defining subjects—will require social approval of their self-definition and -expression.

This vision of the self explains otherwise novel and puzzling ideas: e.g., that you can’t be authentic without acting on your sexual desires, and that a physically healthy biological male might have been a woman all along. And its consequent illiberalism—the impulse to police dissent—explains an otherwise astonishing development. It explains how the status of absolute orthodoxy—which same-sex marriage advocates fought for decades to secure, and still achieved with astonishing speed—was transferred to transgenderism virtually overnight."

This is why we have the new blasphemy laws and heresy trials. It is why progressives and their right-wing fellow travelers on LGBT issues cannot recognize that equating homosexuality with race is a massive category error, and trads don’t understand why progressives don’t see what is obvious to us.

We are living by two different religions. But progressives, who are the new American mainstream on LGBT issues, don’t understand their view of what a human being is as essentially religious. They think it’s simply normal. But it is a religion: the New Gnosticism.

That’s why they will not stop until orthodox Christians are all thoroughly subjugated and dhimmified. The Sexual Revolution was more profound than the Reformation in its social and political effects, as we are now seeing. How well did life work out for Catholics in Protestant states in the Reformation era, and vice versa? This is why Christians can be as “winsome” as they like, but it won’t make one bit of difference. This is a religious war, and they are always the ugliest kind.
Posted By: Anthony C.

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:57 PM

The Church should be tax exempt cause God is above and beyond such things.... As soon as God and His ordainces become subject to the will of man we already have gone beyond the pale....

Pastors unfaithful in word, doctrine and practice have greatly helped to usher in these disturbing times


Here's a good read yep

Accusing God of Bigotry, Hate Speech, And Child Abuse
By A.J. Castellitto
March 4, 2013 at 10:08am

https://www.westernjournalism.com/accusing-god-of-bigotry-hate-speech-and-child-abuse/

July 7, 2015
Was Jesus Bigoted And Intolerant?
By AJ Castellitto


https://barbwire.com/2015/07/07/1100-was-jesus-bigoted-and-intolerant/
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by Anthony C.
Rod D. of American Conservative lays it out... All the sciences and societies are conforming to their religion...including civil law.... Don't think our Constitution won't fully fold eventually and soon....

I agree that eventually the Constitution will be an archived document of history and Socialism or some other form of government controlled politics will rule. But, I'm not convinced that it might be soon, although it is always possible since God has the power to bring about such things, which He has in the past, even over night. Because the U.S. and Canada are now basically godless societies, the Leftists will be elected to office more and more by the populace. Methinks that Trump being elected is an unexpected phenomena which probably won't be repeated again. It is in my mind a serious warning to where the U.S. is going and its eventual end. The masses and the media are relentless in their attempts to destroy Trump and his "law and order" policies based upon the Constitution. And this "sexual revolution" is assuredly one of the major factors which will bring down the country. It is historical fact that most, if not all, civilizations fall not due to weak military but weak morals. Christians will have dark days ahead if they remain true to God and His commandments. The good news is that the remnant of the Lord shall receive that which God has ordained for them regardless of what they lose in this life, even life itself. For the rest, they have already received their 'reward' but a fiery hell awaits them and nothing will bring them joy nor relief from the agony of eternal punishment.
Posted By: Anthony C.

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:37 PM

I shouldn't pin this solely on pastors either..... Every Christian must stand accountable and stand his/her ground on the firm foundation of faith



Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:19 AM

Not sure if Trinity Western University receives any funds from the government, or is designated as a non-profit society. However (and I am not sure this is relevant), I do know that because it offers career courses in the secular realm, not just in the Christian realm such as becoming a pastor. It must meet certain government standards in order for student’s degrees to be recognized. This is why when they wanted to offer law degrees; it had to go through the Law Society of Canada. I thought it was very sad and telling, when the ruling came back that a client could not get fair and unbiased legal council from a Christian lawyer. What are going to do next, ask all lawyers if they are Christians and if they say "yes" rescind their law degrees?
As an aside note; I agree with my pastor when he said that Trinity Western University could barely be called "Christian". Yet that is another matter entirely.

Tom
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:36 AM

Anthony, as I think of what you said here; I am reminded of a DVD series called 'Only Two Religions' by Dr. Peter Jones.
You can find out more at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3AnvrB0MU&list=PLBijTuqR98sqRBKUPlyh_a2jiVwZKG6w6

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:38 AM

I am familiar with Trinity Western University. It was going "downhill" back in the early 1980s. I used go there from time to time to meet with a friend of mine who was Professor of Theology. He wasn't happy with the shenanigans that were going on among the staff and administration. He left there after a short time and took a position at the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:46 AM

Pilgrim
My pastor also said that there is only one Christian college/seminary/university he could recommend in Canada and that is (forget the name) a Baptist seminary in Toronto.

Tom
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:23 AM

I will say a bit more concerning Dr. Peter Jones and his DVD series.
What we are seeing in our society is basically 'Polytheism' and all its trappings such as the death of the Christian God, and the sexual revolution where the terms heterosexuality is not a legit term. Omnisexuality is a term that will be accepted and "Pedophilia" will be included in what is included as normal, just like Carl Jung predicted and promoted. Basically what we are now is closer to Hinduism, than it is to Christianity. I will also add that Christianity will be forced to accept this whether they like it or not.
I might add, that this new sexuality is a battering ram being used to transform the very center of society as we know it; on the belief that everybody wins with this new sexuality.
If you fight against this, you will be punished.

Roman 1:25-26 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:"

Tom

Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tom
My pastor also said that there is only one Christian college/seminary/university he could recommend in Canada and that is (forget the name) a Baptist seminary in Toronto.

Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto. That is where Dr. Michael Haykin used to teach and where I first became acquainted with him. I really didn't know much about the seminary back when I discovered Dr. Haykin and still don't. giggle He left there in 2007 and is the currently Professor of Church History and Biblical Spirituality and Director of The Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Regent college and seminary in Vancouver, to put it mildly continues to be a joke, despite the fact that a few like J.I. Packer taught there for a time.

You can find an excellent article on The Highway written by Dr. Haykin here: Sandemanianism.

And another here: The Reflections of a Puritan Theologian on Regeneration and Conversion.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:30 PM

Pilgrim
Thank you for those two links; both were very informative; but I really enjoyed the story about Keach. He did not live an easy life and can't be accused of compromising; choosing instead to be jailed on several occasions. I especially liked how he took advantage of one of those imprisonments to preach the Gospel. It actually brought memories of Stephen; despite it not ending the same way.
Also, enjoyed reading about his critique of hyper-Calvinism.

Thanks again
Tom
Posted By: Anthony C.

Re: Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k - Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tom
Anthony, as I think of what you said here; I am reminded of a DVD series called 'Only Two Religions' by Dr. Peter Jones.
You can find out more at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3AnvrB0MU&list=PLBijTuqR98sqRBKUPlyh_a2jiVwZKG6w6

Tom

I'm really enjoying these.... Never heard a Reformed preacher shed so much light on the dark pagan 'conspiracies' of our day....I like this Dr. Jones


On a related note.....

Quote
A successful conspiracy is one which is so in tune with the faith and aspirations of its day that it offers to men the fulfilment of the ideals of the age. It is an illusion to believe that dangerous or successful conspiracies represent no more than a small, hidden circle of diabolical men who are manipulating the world into ruin. Such groups often exist, but they only exist and succeed because their plan and hope is closely tied to the public dream and the faith of the age. If the threat were only from small circles of hidden men, then our problem would be easy. Then, as Burton Blumert has observed, “if we only unmasked the conspiracy, all our problems would be solved, but if the trouble is in all of us, then we really are in trouble.” Rushdoony was not one to let the obvious escape the reader, so he added this sentence: If tomorrow the secrecy were stripped from all conspiracies, and their goals revealed, most people would merely say, “Well, isn’t that what we all believe?” and go on with their daily lives.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/08/gary-north/the-trouble-with-conspiracy-theorists/

http://www.offthegridnews.com/religion/the-truth-about-conspiracy-theories/
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