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#57740 Thu May 12, 2022 10:16 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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Like many Reformed Christians I have read the exchange between Pelagius and Augustine and how it is related to Original Sin.

I however have not run into the understanding of Original Sin that was recently told to me in a discussion on the subject.
I was hoping I could get some feedback from some who are more knowledgeable than me.


Quote
though not catholic myself I take the Catholic view of original sin, and in these particular areas, because there understanding is more faithful to scripture, and the views of Augustine and the church fathers.

It’s neither arminian or reformed, but often affirm different aspects of both of them.

As Augustine himself indicted “God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."

So a faithful understanding of Augustine and original sin In relationship to him, can’t be said to imply that original sin damaged our will in such a way, than man can not will to be saved, to repent, etc..

The will posses such a power, is a requirement for both salvation and damnation. Even if it alone neither saves or damns

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu May 12, 2022 10:17 AM.
Tom #57741 Thu May 12, 2022 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Originally Posted by someone else
As Augustine himself indicted “God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."

So a faithful understanding of Augustine and original sin In relationship to him, can’t be said to imply that original sin damaged our will in such a way, than man can not will to be saved, to repent, etc..

The will posses such a power, is a requirement for both salvation and damnation. Even if it alone neither saves or damns
It appears to me that this individual is extrapolating from Augustine his presupposition; "free-will". In short, he rejects the biblical and Reformed doctrine of "Total Depravity". Comparing Augustine's other writings where he deals with the condition of man's nature/will post Fall, it is more than perspicuous that he believed that the will of man is inextricably bound to his nature, i.e., free to sin ONLY. Edwards, of course, wrote and exhaustive treatise on this subject with the title: "The Freedom of the Will". In that treatise, Edwards makes clear also, that man is free to choose according to his nature ONLY, i.e., man cannot choose contrary to his nature.

The truth of the matter is that even God Himself doesn't have a "free will" as is held by all non-Reformed individuals. God cannot desire, think nor do anything that is contrary to His holy nature, i.e., God cannot sin!!

What Augustine was saying is that man BY grace, THROUGH faith due to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, of man's spiritually dead soul will flee to Christ in repentance and believe upon Him for justification and the imputing of Christ's perfect righteousness, for reconciliation with God and adoption as His son/daughter. Yes, man believes, but the actual believing isn't meritorious as it is in the Pelagian, semi-Pelagian and Arminian systems. The believing is the fruit of God's work in a sinner and not the will of the fallen man.

John 1:11-13 (KJV) 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Psalms 110:3 (KJV) 3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


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simul iustus et peccator

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Tom #57745 Thu May 12, 2022 11:43 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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I like how you put this.

So would you say that contrary to what this person is saying.
Augustine did not have the same understanding of “Original Sin” that Roman Catholics today?

Tom


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