Woh, CovenantInBlood...

You said:
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Speaking of devilish counterfeits, the idea that "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a distinct phenomenon subsequent to the new birth (regeneration) is one such counterfeit.

I said:
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I did not say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a 'distinct phenomonen' and R.A. Torrey does not teach it as such. Neither do I. ( Torrey actually taught on the subject of 'the Baptism [with] the Holy Spirit' a mere 82 pages.) He has another article I noticed titled: 'The Personality of the Holy Spirit' - I am looking forward to reading that when I have finished the mountain of references I have already received here. (Actually I am so enjoying reading Torrey - 1st Dean of BIOLA - that I am ignoring everything.) I should get finished with Hosea...naughty, naughty.

* what do you mean by 'distinct phenomenon' ?

Acts 8:12-16 ?

You said: (well quoted R.A. Torrey)
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"From this, it is evident that regeneration is one thing, and that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is something different, something additional."

--R. A. Torrey, The Baptism with the Holy Spirit (New York: Revell, 1897), p. 12.

It was 1.44am when I read this and well I just figured you had got it from something on the internet. (The date 1897 was a dead giveaway. I mean who has a copy that old. Okay, you might have downloaded something from CCEL.) I have a 1972 copy and though your quote is spot on, it needs to be considered in context.

My objection was not to the word distinct, but to coupling it with the world 'phenomenon' : meaning
and for good reason; RA Torrey does not teach the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a 'distinct phenomonen' and neither do I. However, to say that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is distinct, is quite correct. R.A. Torrey's teaching on this is very non-phenomonen orientated and he is actually quite clear in making a point against those who insist upon the 'phenomena' of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

It is this rather misleading word that has been used to identify those who are all about the BIG EXPERIENCE, the BIG FEELING EVENT etc. I would never teach this for I know that the Spirit is received by the hearing of faith and a direct result of prayer according to the will of God.

Being an ex-CHARISMATIC, well as far as boxes go I might be inclined to retain that title, but for now I am not one who supports the idea that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a phenomona.

The idea that one can be baptised with the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism (not infant) but never prior to faith in Christ; seems to be supported by the Scriptures.

So many Charismatics demanded the show (tongues) I have not this view. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a result of a believing prayer to the Father in Jesus name according to the will of God. Asking and believing, settles the matter, the need for a phenomena is probably the reason why I call myself ex-Charismatic.

Torrey actually steers away from phenomonon and places the baptism with the Holy Spirit in the arena of faith and answered prayer, pointing out that the New Testament does not describe a paricular experience. Though he does point out that one might and that they differ from person to person, BUT the real reason for the ministration of the Spirit is to profit withal. The motives are very clearly settled in his tiny book, a worthy read for someone who does not want to 'throw the baby out with the bath water.'

I am happy for this thread to pursue a careful exploration of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Obviously our exchanges need to be very gentle and respectful as we are talking about the Comforter, Counsellor, the promise of the Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Our teacher, and the one who leads us and guides us into all truth.

Seeing as I am sure that not everyone has a copy of this book, I am going to type in a little of what R.A. Torrey wrote so as to not appear to be avoiding the issue of 'phenomonen'.

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From page 60 & 61 of the 1972 Edition.

'But someone will say, "Will it be just as it was before? Won't there be any manifestation?"

Most assuredly there will be some manifestation. "To each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal" (1 Cor. 12:7, ASV).

But what will be the character of the manifestation, and where shall we see it?

It is at this point that many make the mistake. They have, perhaps, read the life of Mr. Finney or of Jonathan Edwards, and recall how great waves of electric emotion swept over these men until they were obliged to ask God to withdraw His hand lest they die from the ecstacy. Or they have gone to some meetings and heard testimonies to similar experiences, and they expect something like this.
Now I do not deny the reality of such experiences. I cannot. The testimony of such men as Finney and Edwards is to be believed. There is a stronger reason why I cannot deny them. But while admitting the reality of these experiences, I would ask, "Where is a single line of the New Testament that describes any such experience in connection with baptism with the Holy Spirit?" Every manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit in the New Testament ws in new power in service. Look, for example, at 1 Corinthians 12 where this subject is treated in a most thorough way, and note the character of the manifestations mentioned. It is quite probable that the apostles had similar experiences to those of Finney and Edwards and others, but if they had, the Holy Spirit kept them from recording them. It is well He did, for if they had told of such things, we would have looked for these same things rather than the more important manifestation-power of service.

My note:
(He goes on to explain the difference between what happened at Pentecost and what happens subsequently. But for that you will have to get the book.)

Certainly where 'phenomenon' is taught in regard to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is going to be most misleading and ultimately lead to a place where people are moving in the realm of the sensual and not the Spirit. (sensual phenomenon vs. manifestation of the Spirit - perhaps a good title for a future discussion.)

When I was 16 going on 17, an unbeliever at the time, I was dragged down to the Church where a man was praying for people to be baptised with the Holy Spirit. He would stay praying for a person until they 'manifested' - tongues. I sat there and my turn was next...I thought quickly, I can do this, just make up some non-sensical jargon and he will move on. He did. So yes, counterfeits happen all the time. Only when I was 18, was I able to take the step of repentance and faith, as was the peradventure of God to include me in His Son. Jesus taught that if we ask the Father for the Spirit, a believing prayer He shall give us the promise. So it was that I prayed in my cell (Naval Detention) with the same faith for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I had no manifestation AT all. On both counts. But I knew that I had been able to believe on Christ, and that I had been able to pray for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Praying can be manufactured, but genuine faith in Christ, is only possible when God opens one's heart as He did with Lydia. He had opened my heart.

So I was released from prison and went to my barracks at a place called 'SAN Barracks'. Sure I felt wonderfully clean and new. I was still smoking my Dumont cigarettes, I am not sure if I still was cussing, but I was pretty green.

My Lt. Cdr (Colin Chambers) asked me if I would like to come to a retreat in the mountains above Llundudno, appropriately called, "Apostle's Battery" and there upon my knees while attempting to pray. (in the child, clasped hands pose, it was so cute) Praying is so hard if you do not have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, for He helps us. Well, at that point as I was praying I ran out of words and suddenly I had a whole lot more to give and my heart just exploded with prayer. It is at this point that I now understood that I had the manifestation of the Spirit. (In prayer...and what glorious prayer, I went from being a mumbler to quite an accomplished prayer. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Well, I was eventually baptised in water,(some 2 years later) though I admit it took a lot of convincing by one elder at the Assembly of God, his name was Mr Ron Swanepoel (they called him 'Ron the baptist'). Now that is my experience, but it is different for each believers and some of the events are not so widely seperated for others, for some it is just one step after the other. - It probably depends on how wilful one is.

Accept Christ by faith, accept the Holy Spirit by faith, and follow Christ. All in a few minutes. To place a particular experience up for scrutiny is to deny the fact that God works with each of us induviduals.

I am going to leave you to think about what I have written before you present your reasons as to why you believe the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not distinct. ( I think we can pretty much agree that 'phenomenon' applies to the extreme experiential orientated crowd who make it all about a particular manifestation. ie: tongues. I don't teach this !)

Looking forward to your answer.



Last edited by straw; Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:27 AM.