Denny,

Clearly 'many' in Calvin's quote would relate to 'the many are called but few are chosen' in Matthew 20 & 22. The phrase you use 'depraved anthropocentric "free will" certainly brings to mind 'And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;' in Romans 1 and 'Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.' in 2 Timothy 3.

It is not only C/P who are double chained; all who are outside of Christ are chained this way. I found this quote by Philo to be worthy of consideration in the Commentary by John Gill relating to 1 John 3:12 - 'Philo the Jew says , 'that in the contention or dispute between Cain and Abel, Abel attributed all things to God, and Cain ascribed everything to himself; so that the controversy was about grace and works, as now; and as then Cain hated his brother upon this account, so now carnal men hate and persecute the saints, because they will not allow their works to be the cause of justification and salvation: and from hence also it may be observed, that a work may be, as to the matter of it, good, and yet as to its circumstances, and the end and view of it, evil.' [Quod Det. Potior. p. 161.]

After a betrayal of trust, I believe it is important to move, with God's help, to a place where one no longer strives but is gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient. In meekness instructing those that opposse themselves; if GOD peradventure, will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.'

Reading through Romans 1, I used to think 'Ah...them evil doers' until I turned to Romans 2:1 and quickly recanted from my Romanish heresy. Jesus divided men into two very distinct catergories when he said : 'I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.' (Matthew 18)

Children are very trusting, and so was I when I joined the AOG in 1976. I had never been a part of any church, except for a Presbyterian sprinkle baptism at four months of age. So when at 18, I climbed those steps to get my first dose of CHURCH, I naievely believed these to be the most trustworthy humans on the planet. What was I to know ? I never knew that God's people, had business meetings, Catechisms, Creeds, and discussions about which doctrines were true and which were false. Yet, every single church or denomination or religion has a lot going on under that lake that I imagined to be tranquill. In fact I found the lake to be far from tranquill and beneath the surface even in the early days I began to find some gigantic inconsistencies from what I was learning. Of course I just buried my thoughts down DEEP inside, and just submitted to the leaders, and bit by bit the freedom that I had been allowed when I first arrived. You know how cute one is with a new believer. Oh how sweet, shame how cute...and all those baby sounds...goo goo ... ga, ga... etc ? Then the rules get brought into play and before you know it you are just like everyone else 'penguins in bondage' ... and the indoctrination begins. It is the same in every single Church. Indoctrination is the bag. Force the little guy to eat something, take him off the bottle, and before you know it the nipple of contentment has been replaced by the doctrines of man, as they have assembled from the writings of the sages and heroes of the particular denomination, attatched to certain verses, which over time disappear and no longer is a Bible Study a Bible Study it is more like the Churches agenda for the community or whatever new course, be it Shepherd Movement, Discipleship, CGM, Alpha. You go from learning from His Word to learning from the head honcho's. As you said, either you are hard and remain and I add, or you are soft and crumble, or you get wise and GET OUT!

Not everyone wants to go back and rescue the friends who are as you say, 'chained' and it is probably wise to stay out and get into the Scriptures. I have not always found that it is wise to take the errors and correct them, for one will find that most errors are compounded on others and the whole batch is 'leaven'. Jesus said, 'BEWARE' So I guess one might do a Luther and with hammer and nail bang it on the door, or just send a letter. Then leave and do not go back. I prefer to just say you say and be on your way.

I live in Africa, and to be more accurate Southern Africa, and in particular the Cape Province in a place called Simonstown, though I do live quite a ways away from the town and I have yet to find a church that does not have something wrong with the doctrinal statement. Especially on this matter of "free will".

However, the reason I strung this thread was not to explore Martin Luther's book on 'The Bondage of the Will' but to simply explore one erroneous doctrine that seems to be a product of a theological position I heard described once by the head of an ex-pagan site, where I was banned for not accepting their Calminian Theology. I eventually recieved a barrage of email from the head of the site, rebuking me for holding to the teachings of John Calvin and in particular that I believed in 'the eternal preservation of the saints'

I rememeber always being most puzzled to be told firstly that you are saved by grace through faith...(you know the passage) and then be told that if I do not remain faithful I could lose my salvation. Being young and foolish and not know the rules of engagement, namely the law of contradition, or as some call it the law of non-contradiction I guess I was fairgame for most every would-be wanna be self proclaimed teacher of truth. I had the old youthful sponge like mind and so everything went in.

I guess learning the doctrines of grace in the early eighties though in a very primitive form, helped me to take apart 'The Four Spiritual Laws'. It was such a joy when I could, but I realized this was only one step in the right direction, now I needed to make sure that I really knew exactly what the Gospel is. It is one thing to know what it is not, but to know the Gospel is a whole different process and requires much study of the Scriptures, which is exactly where I am when I am not here making an entry and this is certainly going to be my last on this thread.

Thanks for all the contributions. If you still want to add some stuff about 'THE ETERNAL PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS' I would greatly, greatly appreciate it.