Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Joined: Apr 2001
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xyz said:
The word matheeteúsate means 'make disciples by teaching'. That is how rabbis made disciples for themselves, but here conversion was to be on behalf of, in the name of, the deity, Father, Son and Spirit, no less. It is gospel teaching that baptizes 'with fire', i.e. spiritually, not by physical means. The context is one of authority, Jesus having been given 'all power in heaven and on earth'. The dispute is not over "disciples" but over "baptize".  I know of no "gospel teaching that baptizes 'with fire'" but rather the biblical Gospel that calls men to repentance and faith and then to be baptized in water. To deny that this was the COMMON practice during the entire period of the apostles would be more than ignorant, for there are myriad examples of believers (and their households) being baptized in water. Sorry, but I am not going to spend time providing links to the dozens of places where these appear. xyz then said: By being baptized in water, the converts were 'pinning their colors to the mast', making open declaration of allegiance to their Master. Today, water baptizm signifies very little- but public personal oral testimony of what Jesus has done for individuals does signify, though. That is used by some as the practical indication of conversion before men (along with personal fruits)- while not prohibiting water baptizm, the practise of which is a personal decision. Again, your view flies in the face of explicit biblical passages which teach otherwise. A good summary with biblical evidence can be seen in:
Westminster Larger Catechism
Q165: What is Baptism? A165: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,[1] to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself,[2] of remission of sins by his blood,[3] and regeneration by his Spirit;[4] of adoption,[5] and resurrection unto everlasting life;[6] and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church,[7] and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's.[8]
1. Matt. 28:19 2. Gal. 3:27 3. Mark 1:4; Rev. 1:5 4. Titus 3:5; Eph. 5:26 5. Gal. 3:26-27 6. I Cor. 15:29; Rom. 6:5 7. I Cor. 12:13 8. Rom. 6:4
lastly xyz said: That is his main point, agreed, but in reinforcing it, he indicates that water baptizm, even though likely to be commonly practised, is not a principle concern of his. Paul became 'father' to the Corinthians through the gospel, i.e. he 'baptized' them in the Holy Spirit, yet he baptized only a few of them in water. That was Paul's personal choice in order to avoid an inordinate following. If such a risk was not present he would have baptized no less than the other apostles and appointed elders in all the churches he found. However, he chose to let the other leaders in the local assemblies do the baptizing while he focused on missionary endeavors to bring the Gospel message to those who hadn't heard it. The letter was written to an established church not as a directive but as a rebuke to those who were sectarian and given to following an individual rather than Christ. There is no indication whatsoever that Paul held a lesser view of baptism than anyone else. Nowhere does he disparage baptism! In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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My first question?
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plt
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MarieP
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plt
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