The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum ELECTION, PREDESTINATION, GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY AND MA

Don... it seems you have had a prepared statement ready to launch on us Calvinists which you have used for quite some time. For example, two years ago you were using this stuff HERE. After reading every page and every single entry in that Plymouth Brethren thread re: Calvinism, Arianism and the Plymouth Brethren, it is obvious to conclude that you have no desire to learn from us but only to get into an endless and fruitless debate. Thus, I would be foolish to spend any time presenting the case for biblical Calvinism to you. I suspect it is the proverbial case of, "Don't confuse me with the facts! I've already got my mind all made up."

However, I am going to dismantle your basic argument(s) with just a few comments which perhaps you haven't been presented with before now.

1. There is no biblical passage anywhere which states that God's election is but a "plan". Election always has an object, e.g., a nation, individual, etc. with a specific end in view, e.g., to be a witness to the nations, to be saved, etc.

2. Eph 1:4-13 is addressed specifically to "the saints", i.e., those who have believed upon the Lord Christ. And in that passage Paul is explaining HOW it is they came to be saints; by God's eternal election unto salvation from beginning to end.

3. God's election of individuals is TO believing and never BECAUSE of believing. There is no biblical passage that even implies such nonsense. See, for example, Acts 13:48; Ps 110:3; Rom 8:29,30; 9:11-13; 1Pet 1:2; Jh 1:12,13.

For a large collection of articles presenting and defending the Calvinist view of predestination, go HERE.

"Coming/Come" in various places is also a synonym for believing/faith, e.g., Jh 6:44 where no man/one comes to Christ unless it is given to him by the Father to do so. This is a discriminatory act of God to reveal Christ to some and to withhold it from others, e.g., Matt 11:25-27; Rom 9:14-24; 11:7,8; 1Thess 5:9; 2Thess 2:11,12; Acts 16:14; Jh 10:26, etc. and 1Pet 2:8; Rom 9:22; 2Pet 2:3; Jude 1:4.

Sorry, but Mr. Wuest erred in his understanding of the Greek. There are many good men who are equally or even more knowledgeable of the Greek which would strongly dispute his understanding of the grammar in that text. Philippians 1:29 clearly states that "belief" is given by God, cf. also Jh 1:12,13; Matt 16:17; Jh 6:44,45; Acts 17:27; Col 2:12; Jam 1:17,18.

I'm afraid you have this backward. God designed and therefore He knew all things. Foreknowledge flows from God's eternal decree/council. There is no logical way God could know anything before it happened unless it was by His own eternal foreordination. If anyone posits that "saw" what was going to happen and consequently He "knew", then this de facto mitigates against the doctrine of Omniscience. For, if God has to "observe" what someone did then this of necessity means that God did not know of that act beforehand. Thus that knowledge was absent from Him.

Secondly, what person or thing could God possibly "observe" if He didn't create it previously? If it was in His "mind", then it is true that He conceived of it/them first, thus proving my point. If a person or thing existed outside of God then of necessity this mitigates against and denies God's Omnipresence.

Thirdly, if there are things and/or persons which exist independently of His eternal council and foreordination, then it cannot be said that God is Omnipotent but contrariwise, God is thus made to ordain only that which already exists/happens.

Fourthly, in regard to man if, for the sake of argument, God "sees" one believing and another not and thus predestines/elects the one and not the other, then there is no room for "free-will". For, the unbelieving one cannot believe even if he wanted to since his destiny has already been firmly fixed from eternity. Of course, this presumes that individuals pre-existed their actual creation which again is sheer nonsense. But nevertheless, whatever God ordains shall come to pass in either case which again negates any idea of "free-will".

Not according to Eph 1:4; Rom 9:11-13. Election is from eternity and not done in time.

Sorry, wrong again... See texts above re: appointed/predestined to destruction.

Again, see above, e.g., Rom 9:11-13, et al.

Now you are entering into the area of Christ's atonement, which is another subject entirely. However, just a few comments on this:

1. If Christ died for everyone then everyone MUST of necessity be saved. For Christ's death paid the penalty for ALL sins. Thus, on what legal basis can God rightly condemn anyone? For the most succinct refutation of this notion see here: For Whom Did Christ Die?

I have already commented on the origin of God's "foreknowledge", aka: Omniscience above. You are assuming "free-will" and haven't offered any biblical support for it. Arthur Pink has written one of the best statements and biblically sound articles on foreknowledge HERE.

Lastly, I can understand fully why you reject historic Arminianism. It is clearly far too conservative in comparison to your view(s).