Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Historic Calvinism has always affirmed that the MORAL law of God is perpetual and binding upon ALL MEN. The disagreement, as you surely know is if God has determined that governments are to be formed by believers only and/or are to be established upon God's moral and OT civil law ONLY? But most pressing is if the civil law established for the nation of Israel in the OT is perpetual and thus to be exacted upon all societies and by whom?

Let's take your list and have you answer that question, shall we?

Are we free to have other idols to worship? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to take the Lord's name in vain? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to not observe the sabbath? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to dishonor our parents? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to murder others? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to lay with our neighbor's spouse? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to steal from others? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to lie? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to covet our neighbor's spouse or his belongings? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?

If you are convinced that the biblical answer to all or even any of the above questions is "Yes!", then please tell me who would be left on earth? Would the last man then commit suicide to fulfill this requirement? scratchchin The ONLY law that include capital punishment and which is perpetual and universal is #5; murder, which is a creation ordinance (Gen 9:6, et al). The truth is that GOD is the one who will exact capital punishment upon all lawbreakers, and even that punishment isn't "death" (non-existence), but eternal death/punishment. This includes the elect who are not declared, "No Guilty" but rather "GUILTY!! as charged and their punishment was exacted upon them on Calvary through the vicarious substitutionary atonement of the Lord Christ. For they too are constantly guilty of breaking all of God's holy law day in and day out and are worthy of judgement throughout their days on earth.

Paul was not sentenced to stoning, for by his own confession he broke the law of God constantly:

Originally Posted by the Apostle Paul
Romans 7:14-25; 8:1,2) (ASV) 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. 16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good [is] not. 19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. 20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. 21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

I'm glad you mentioned God being the One who will bring wrath/judgment upon lawbreakers, and I heartily agree. However, how is God's justice meted out? We can find in Romans 12, bleeding over into chapter 13:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.[Romans 12:14-21]


Here we see we are not the ones who are to take justice into our own hands, but to give this over to God. Now, how does God do this exactly? When chapter 13 starts, Paul hasn't started a new thought (I am sure you already know this, but to make a point), but expounds upon what he wrote in chapter 12:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.[Romans 13:1-5]


God uses civil magistrates to exact justice upon lawbreakers. Yes, He has used supernatural means, with Achan and his family in Joshua 7. But He usually uses others to accomplish it. Look at Isaiah 10 for instance. He called the Assyrians His rod of anger (vs 5) and His axe (vs 15). He used them to accomplish His will. We even see this in a parable told by Jesus:

Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man. There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, ‘Give me legal protection from my opponent.’ For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.’” And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge said; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”[Luke 18:1-8]

This widow was being bothered (ESV used "justice", whereas the NASB used "legal protection") and she did the right thing. She did not take justice into her own hands, but sought civil magistrates to exact justice for her.


I'm slowly answering you, one post at a time.

Last edited by SovereignGrace; Thu Oct 09, 2025 2:16 AM.
“The foundation of knowledge is God’s revelation.” Dr. Greg Bahnsen

“In the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ appears in order to fulfill the Old Testament hope of the Messiah. He presents himself as the king who has come to establish his kingdom in anticipation of his universal rule.” Dr. Kenneth Gentry

“Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.” William Penn