The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Man-Centered vs God-Centered

Dear Pilgrim,<br><br>I told you what I believe. That in every temptation, God makes a way of escape, and hence we are not forced into any sin. Do you have problems with such a belief? Your quote from Paul was out of context, for he was speaking of his life as a murderer and blasphemer before he knew Christ, not his present state, in which he declared that the law of life in Christ had freed him from the law of sin and death (in Romans 7, Paul also spoke of his past life of bondage to sin in present tense to illustrate his point).<br><br>But concerning perfectionism, the only way to "be perfect" as the scripture states is by following the Spirit of God. If a man strays from following, then his ways are no longer perfect before God. Walking perfectly before God does not imply that a man is without a sin nature (for even the saved still have one), but that he does not walk in iniquity.<br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Dear Steve,<br><br>IRT:<br>"How does one get the ears to hear and another not? Obviously this doesn't mean those who are deaf vs. those who can hear. So, can a unregenerated person really "hear" the words of Christ? Can an unregenerated person, i.e. a dead person, hear?"<br><br>Yes, for it is God who gives one ears to hear the truth. A choice comes in though in whether a man will stop his ears and harden his heart to the truth.<br><br>Zechariah 7:11 says,<br><br>"But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. "<br><br>IRT:<br>"As for Luke 7:30, I'm still not sure what this proves. God commanded them to be baptized. Did God really desire and wish they were baptized? Is that what this says? I don't believe it is."<br><br>He certainly did. The text is quite clear, they rejected the counsel (literally, 'the will') of God for themselves in not being baptized by John.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Josh,<br>If this is past tense for Paul.....<br>So you would say, then, that Paul, in an unregenerate state, "hated sin" (Romans 7:15), "delights in the law of God" (Rom 7:22), and "serves the law of God" (Romans 7:25)? <br><br>Steve C<br>

Dear Wesley,<br><br>Nice scripture list. But as I stated, there is nothing in them to prove that God's call is irresistable, just as I showed in Luke 13:34. Just as the Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's counsel for themselves (Luke 7:11), so may sinners today.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Josh,<br>So man really does save himself? I ask that because, if you and I are given ears to hear, and you hear, and I don't, then it is your work of hearing or "not stopping up your ears" that caused you to hear.<br>It seems to me, however, that Zech 7:11 is very simply the Jews refusing again to obey the command of God. <br><br>Steve C<br>

Dear Steve,<br><br>Now that is a good question. Paul is saying that as an unregenerate man, he has a mental desire to follow Christ, but finds himself unable to do so (and probably hating himself for it). As many a person on this board has told me, there are many who are religious who are not really saved. And Paul's almost paradoxial position is one that I have witnessed myself many times, a person who with his mind serves the law of God (in acknowledging that it is good and right), but their flesh still serves sin (as do all unsaved). Paul calls it the law of sin and death. But in chapter 8, he goes on to say that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set him free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2), and that Christ's death accomplished what the law could not do.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Josh,<br>Does then sinning mean we are unregenerate?<br>Steve

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[color:"blue"]Walking perfectly before God does not imply that a man is without a sin nature (for even the saved still have one), but that he does not walk in iniquity.

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In His Grace,

Josh,<br><br>Those who reject Him never knew Him.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]... there is no indication that man must be 'regenerated' before he can hear the God that calls even the dead, for John 5:25 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. "</font><hr></blockquote><p>Are you trying to prove that dead men can hear without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit? If so how can it be that Paul says, "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." <br><br>John says, "The hour is coming, and now is" when salvation will become reality for the believer. It is a resurrection begun already, and further to be carried on, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. I understand it as the power of the doctrine of Christ, for the recovering and quickening of those that were dead in trespasses and sins. Paul tells us in Eph. 2:1, "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins." The hour was coming when dead souls should be made alive by the preaching of the gospel, and a spirit of life from God accompanying it: in fact it was then, while Christ was upon earth. The elect will be effectually called. <br><br>(1.) Sinners are spiritually dead, destitute of spiritual life, sense, strength, and motion, dead to God, miserable, but neither sensible of their misery nor able to help themselves out of it. <br><br>(2.) The conversion of a soul to God is its resurrection from death to life; then it begins to live when it begins to live to God, to breathe after him, and move towards Him. <br><br>(3.) It is by the voice of the Son of God that souls are raised to spiritual life; it is wrought by His power, and that power conveyed and communicated by His word: The dead shall hear, shall be made to hear, to understand, receive, and believe, the voice of the Son of God, to hear it as his voice; the Spirit by it gives life. <br><br>(4.) The voice of Christ must be heard by us, that we may live by it. They that hear, and attend to what they hear, shall live. <br><br>This requires regeneration! Regeneration is the act of God alone, in which He renews the human heart, making it alive when it was dead. In regeneration, God acts at the origin and deepest point of the human person. This means that there is no preparation, no preceding disposition in a sinner that requests or contributes to the new life by God.<br><br>Regeneration is necessary because all descendants of Adam and Eve have inherited their sin and are morally unable to do what is good. Paul wrote to the Ephesians that people are by nature dead in trespasses and sins. In this state, they are without God and without hope in the world. Not in response to their merit, but freely and in love, God speaks the word that raises the dead.<br><br><br>Wes

JoshT,<br><br>You resist the truth. You create your own doctrine by selecting a few verses out of context to support your logic. When you read verses that others recommend you deny they say anything relevant. Maybe you can't see it and maybe you just reject it. It's becoming quite clear that you are not here to learn but to be contentious. You reject the clear teaching of Scripture! Men who resist God's will are in darkness and they avoid the light because they love the darkness. They are not able to hear His voice because they are not from His flock. It is not because they resist that they are lost. It is because they do not belong to Him that they reject Him.<br><br>You have tried to prove otherwise but have been unsuccessful. Everyone on this Discussion Board who has responded to you in love has tried to show you that God is not subject to man but instead has revealed Himself as the One who predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies His own. His own will not reject Him because they hear His voice, and they know Him as their Shepherd. Those who resist Him never knew Him.<br><br>In John 10:27-29 Jesus' tells us, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." <br><br>You keep insisting that you can simply break that grip and fall away. Well, you've not disproved Jesus' words. Those who fall away are not His sheep. Otherwise He's a liar. He's not a liar, however, there is one who is known to be the father of all lies. He's the one who challenges what God says.<br><br>John 6:64, 65 tells us, "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.<br><br><br>Wes<br><br><br><br><br>

Brother JoshT,<br><br><br>I would also like the add the following to Wes' excellent reply. I had sent this in PM, but decided to post it any way.<br><br> <br>Since you are in enginerring or computer science( It seems you have computer science now, but engineering at some point, nevertheless...), I'm sure you have come across ‘IF then statements’, etc. Since you seem ignore simple scripture references and explanations , i'd figure i'd show you this through an equation to show you your shortcomings. Brother, let’s reason together. ( I apologize for those who don't like math or programming )<br><br>For example... a typical “if/Then Else statement is usually as such: <br> <blockquote><br> [color:blue]IF</font color=blue> ( Condition is true ) [color:blue]THEN</font color=blue><br> [color:red]A always occurs</font color=red><br> [color:blue]ELSE</font color=blue><br> [color:red]B always occurs</font color=red><br> </blockquote><br>As you would know from such equations that if the Condition is TRUE, then variable ‘A’ wil always be the RESULT. Other wise if Condition is false, then 'B' is always the result. There can be no ther way.<br>Now going to illustrate 3 examples for you:<br><br>1. Now from John 6:3637 states that " But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. <br>All that the Father gives me will come to me..” <br><blockquote> <br>From that it is easy to put in the equation above as such.<br> [color:blue] IF</font color=blue> ( ONE IS GIVEN BY THE FATHER ) [color:blue]THEN</font color=blue>,<br> [color:red] HE/SHE COMES TO CHRIST ( 6:37) </font color=red><br> [color:blue] ELSE</font color=blue>( Not given) <br> [color:red] DOES NOT COME TO CHRIST/Does not Believe. (john 6:36) </font color=red><br><br>The condition is such if one is Given by the Father, He/She WILL Come to christ ALWAYS. There is NO “MAYBE” here. IT says Will. My brother, that is “PLAIN”. It says “ALL”!<br></blockquote><br><br>2. This is even taken further by John 6:44. <br>6:44..No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.<br><blockquote><br> [color:blue]IF</font color=blue> ( NOT DRAWN by the FATHER ) [color:blue]THEN</font color=blue><br> [color:red] DOES NOT COME to CHRIST (.ie. Believe in Him (see John 6:35)) </font color=red><br> [color:blue]ELSE</font color=blue> ( drawn by the Father)<br> [color:red] RAISED UP ON THE LAST DAY</font color=red><br><br>very easy to see that 6:44 is same as 37 except said it is said in negative form. <br></blockquote><br> <br>3. Romans 8:28-30 <br> 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.<br><blockquote><br> [color:blue]IF</font color=blue> ( One was Foreknown( foreloved, chosen) ) [color:blue]THEN</font color=blue> <br> [color:red] He/She was PREDESTINED to Image of Christ </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She WILL be CALLED[effectually] </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She WILL be JUSTIFIED </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She WILL be Glorified[ which is is being in the image of Christ] </font color=red><br> [color:blue]ELSE </font color=blue><br> [color:red] He/She was not Predesitned to Image of Christ, </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She will not be Effectually Called </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She will Not be Justified </font color=red><br> [color:red] He/She will not Be Glorified</font color=red><br></blockquote><br>The chain has no break; No one can break the chain without Addding/Removing from the text. It’s quite amazing to me that you , who likes to use the word “plain” and “Clear” and yet cannot see such when it really is plain an clear. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/shrug.gif" alt="shrug" title="shrug[/img]. <br><br>These texts EASILY DEMONSTRATE the effectuall calling, perseveance, etc. of the elect. Only changing the text can say other wise,. and whe this happens one is no longer doing EXEGESIS, but EISOGESIS. <br><br><br><span style="background-color:yellow;">Glory to God ALONE</span><br><blockquote><br>Ps. 135:6 “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.”<br>Prov. 19:21 “Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand.”<br>Prov. 21:1 “The kings heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever He wishes.<br>Is. 14:27 “For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”<br>Is. 43:13 “Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”<br></blockquote><br>Thus, In regard to Luke 7:30...<br>"When the Pharisees are said “to have rejected the counsel of God against themselves”( Lk. 7.30), we are not to undertand the decrective will, which is immutable and irrevocable(Isia 46:10, Heb 6:17), but the preceptive will, which is so often designated by the word “boules” or “counsel”(Prov 1:24, 25; Acts 20:27,; Rev 3:18). They are therfore said to have despised the counsel of God to their destruction, in asmuch as they rejected the command of God proposed by john which he called them to faith and repentance, and thus closed the way of salvation shown to them by him and to their great harm despised that grace of God(Turretin). "<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos<br>

Just something to think about...why would a man, who wants to be happy and that is his only drive, resist something that is better than all else and that will make him ultimately happy when that is offered him? Cuz according to Paul, <br><br><blockquote>[color:blue]"for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church"</font color=blue> Ephesians 5:29</blockquote><br><br>And if this is the case, why would man deny his own joy and happiness? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flatcat.gif" alt="flatcat" title="flatcat[/img]<br><br>

Josh<br><br>You are missing the fact that there are two different kinds of the will of God.<br>One is the will of God for us not to disobey His commandments and the other is the will of God that can not be resisted. Romans 9:19 is an example of this kind of God's will.<br><br>Tom

God shows us that without His regenerative Spirit, we will never come to Him to our benefit, even if He were to offer directly to our face! In Isaiah 7, God tells the evil king Ahaz to ask Him for a sign that He will do all the things He says He will. It is obvious that God is inviting Ahaz into a relationship, if he can come of his own 'free will'. Ahaz proudly rebuffs God.<br><br>But his son Hezekiah, in 2 Kings 19, who does have that regenerative Spirit, in the exact same situation years later, is not going to make the same mistake! He takes God up on His offer and watches the Lord not only easily and willingly fulfills the sign, but also rout the enemy of Israel. I believe that this is a wonderful demonstration of the fact that the Spirit gives life that we may come to Him.

Whoa! Talk about a ghost from the past! I thought you had taken off never to return. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]He does give them the power to remain by the Holy Ghost, but He does not force them to remain. I am opposed to eternal security on Biblical grounds.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>The problem, though Josh, is that you have not provided any meaningful exegesis as to why eternal security is not biblical. Instead, you have flooded our posting group with verses taken out of context and a tortured exegesis of the Bible that conforms the Bible to the presuppositions of your particular conditional security beliefs. Furthermore, you have not answered my original question that I posed months ago when I first posted on the Highway list. That being, do men maintain their freewill in heaven after they are in the eternal state? Will men have the ability to leave heaven if they so choose by the exercise of their freewill? Why or Why not? If they can choose salvation, and even return to their original lostness by the mere expression of their free choice now in this world, why would it be any different in the eternal state?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Ephesians says that it is God's will that the elect be saved, but many times the Bible makes it clear that God's will is not always done by men (see Luke 13:34). The Bible also speaks of us still striving towards the goal of salvation in Christ Jesus…..<br><br>So there is no contradiction in having the righteousness of Christ, and still striving to enter the narrow gate.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>But how does this demonstrate a loss of salvation? This is where your argument falls apart. We would agree with you that believers are to strive toward the goal as Paul writes, but there is a stark difference between striving to pursue a sanctified life and growth in holiness, and striving for fear of loosing salvation. Do you actually think that the only reason we are to pursue righteousness is because of fear of being cut off from the Lord? What sort of salvation is that? Moreover, I believe Pilgrim raised a good point in one of his posts to you from last week or so. Those of your ilk, like Dan Corner who madly advocate conditional security, tend to externalize righteousness and sinfulness, rather than recognize a changed heart that conforms a person to godliness. Christ was concerned with heart change, not just external works. Where we part company is that you would believe that the person changes his heart by the act of his freewill, and we Calvinists confirm what the Bible teaches, that God is the one that changes the heart, thus freeing the will to love and pursue godliness. <br><br>Fred