averagefellar said: Personally, I think catholicsoldier has been fairly hospitable and decent during his stay here. I think this is an interesting topic, since the church upheld this idea nearly universally until the reformation. I think that simply stating somebody is an idol worshiper without offering evidence is worse than posting a controversial topic. It's blind character assassination. Such an odd approach for those who usually scream "give me scripture", yet I saw none.
I, for one, think there is a middle ground here. We can easily go overboard and these items can cause us to stumble. However, I find that nearly every church I have attended uses some form of symbolism; cross, chalices, doves, etc. Historically, the use of basic symbols such as these has been allowed. So where do we draw the line? Should our churches have only wood floors and pews?
As a reformed Anglican type, our churches do use some symbolism However, we try to keep from using too much, and make sure we have specific reasons for the symbolisms we use. Every REC parish I have visited was very conservative, with generally only a cross. There is some stained glass in some parishes, but I think it best to remain conservative on this issue and limit the use of such things. It's just as easy for fancy pretty things to draw your attention away from God.
God bless,
william
I have been away for some time my how things seem to change even on the highway.I was not saying catholicsoldier personally was an idolater,but I cannot see for the life of me HOW having so many unscriptural things in a church is not idolatary.Then again perhaps some of us are perhaps just a bit to reformed.
My question was not in regard to worship but veneration. Venerate: to regard with reverential respect; to honor with mingled respect and awe. Do you believe we should venerate artwork or supposed relics of the saints?
Also, averagefellar asked about scriptural references for prayer to the saints not prayer for the saints.
The saints pray for the church but does that mean we should pray to them? Do they pray to us?
I can list four things your church either does or has that are not found in scripture. Are you espousing SolO Scriptura? Maybe you could define "Reformed Enough"?
averagefellar said: I can list four things your church either does or has that are not found in scripture. Are you espousing SolO Scriptura? Maybe you could define "Reformed Enough"?
What has changed on The Highway?
God bless,
william
Since you have no knowledge of my church I would be interested to hear your list. Reformed certainly does not include statues, pictures of Christ etc etc
Your ploy to use emotions is sad indeed. As a "reformed enough" Christian (whatever that is since you still haven't defended that assertion) you certainly shouldn't be putting your emotions first.
Now, please define "reformed". I see many crosses in "reformed" churches.
Does your church have Sunday school?
Do you carry your own private set of scriptures to church?
References please? I know you prefer the edicts of Rome against God's word, but on this board, we uphold the primacy of God's word, not tradition that changes with the wind. Now, please support your claim with scripture?
William, I'm sorry, but this "wind" is going to come around and bite you. One would be hard pressed to make the case that Catholic traditions change with the wind. Our traditions go back centuries, many of them all the way back to the New Testament times. But this charge can be laid compellingly against the Protestant Reformation, for Protestant tradition and doctrine has deviated so wildly from those fathers of the Reformation that modern beliefs are almost alien in comparison to founding beliefs. Would you like a few examples?
C.S. Lewis said concerning rituals:
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"Those who dislike ritual in general, ritual in any and every department of life, may be asked most earnestly to reconsider the question....The modern habit of doing ceremonial things unceremoniously is no proof of humility; rather it proves the offender's inability to forget himself in the rite, and his readiness to spoil for every one else the proper pleasure of ritual."
John Calvin said, concerning the Eucharist:
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"It is a spiritual mystery which cannot be seen by the eye nor comprehended by human understanding. Therefore it is represented for us by means of visible signs, according to the need of our weakness. Nevertheless, it is not a naked figure, but one joined to its truth and substance. With good reason then, the bread is called the body, because it not only represents it, but also presents it."
The pretribulation rapture heresy is also fairly recent and infects nearly all of Protestantism, being introduced by John Nelson Darby, and then widely propagated by C.I. Scofield vie the Scofield Reference Bible. Don't talk to ME about doctrines that violate scripture! This one is specifically refuted in 2 Thess.
Some other trends are even more recent, such as claiming Christianity is not a religion (it's a relationship), would raise the eyebrows of our grandparents who sang, "Give me that old time religion, it's good enough for me."
Now Lutheran services are far more similar to Catholic ones than in their observance of litergy and tradition. Martin Luther had disagreements with the Catholic Church but he didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
In fact, "individualist Christianity" such as the "just me and Jesus," mentality goes completely against the corporate nature of the Church in the New Testament and the continued observance of such by the early reformers.
Just what would Ozwald Chambers, or Alexander Campbell think of mainline denominations softening their doctrines on same-sex marriage, or homosexual clergy? Or the growing belief that hell is neither literal or eternal? Catholic Church fathers throughout the ages condemned homosexuality and pederasty and maintained the certainty of eternal punishment for the wicked. Those priests caught in the sex abuse scandals were in violation of Church teaching, but never did we sway in our doctrines.
Most evangelicals don't even bother to read the works of their founders, and even if they did, they would be shocked to hear the beliefs of those founders and how different they are by today's standard.
In fact, sola scriptura, and the reciprocal implication that the Church has no authority of its own, has sprung over 33,000 denominations, with myriads of doctrines, opinions, and false teachings creeping in everywhere. Because people aren't held to a single standard or body of doctrine, just to the Bible which, they're told, they can interpret privately claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit, even though Peter strictly warned that we may not.
Protestantism has no walls, no standard, and no authority of its own. Doctrines of demons are pervading everywhere. And oddly enough, this is occuring everywhere except for those religious communities that still adhere to the corporate nature of which Christ designed His Church, such as the Amish.
And so you have no basis for charging us with listless traditions. You may not agree with us, but at least we are consistant. We are built on the Rock, and not on shifting sands, and our Tradition and Sacramental, Apostolic faith has withstood the ages, and will continue to do so.
And I mean no disrespect to the Protestant Reformation, but I am alarmed and saddened by what is happening to those I consider brethren in Christ. And Mother Church stands ready to recieve back anyone what wants the stability of an ancient, stalwart, and unshakeable Church.
Sorry William, you asked for it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />
Our traditions go back centuries, many of them all the way back to the New Testament times.
Still waiting for references concerning those I listed. In fact, you just admitted many of your traditions are newer as well.
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But this charge can be laid compellingly against the Protestant Reformation, for Protestant tradition and doctrine has deviated so wildly from those fathers of the Reformation that modern beliefs are almost alien in comparison to founding beliefs.
Equating modern 'christianity' with the faith of the reformers is indefensible.
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The pretribulation rapture heresy is also fairly recent and infects nearly all of Protestantism, being introduced by John Nelson Darby, and then widely propagated by C.I. Scofield vie the Scofield Reference Bible. Don't talk to ME about doctrines that violate scripture! This one is specifically refuted in 2 Thess.
I spoke against this practice once before. Taking the worst example of supposed christian groups and making them the standard is dishonest. Shall I make one pedophile priest the example of all Roman Catholicism?
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In fact, "individualist Christianity" such as the "just me and Jesus," mentality goes completely against the corporate nature of the Church in the New Testament and the continued observance of such by the early reformers.
Not something you will find me defending. I think I mentioned this as well. Please stick to the real issues.
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In fact, Sola scriptura, and the reciprocal implication that the Church has no authority of its own, has sprung over 33,000 denominations, with myriads of doctrines, opinions, and false teachings creeping in everywhere.
The sentence is contradictory. Scripture is truth, not opinions. I would suggest Rome is also overcome with false teachings.
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You may not agree with us, but at least we are consistant. We are built on the Rock, and not on shifting sands, and our Tradition and Sacramental, Apostolic faith has withstood the ages, and will continue to do so.
I have yet to see a single reference showing that your traditions were practiced by the ECF's. Rome has shifted on several practices and added an authority not found within scripture. Rome is its own authority and this is the very problem you just denounced.
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And Mother Church stands ready to receive back anyone what wants the stability of an ancient, stalwart, and unshakeable Church.
I won't respond point by point, but concerning the pretribulation rapture, maybe you are unaware to what extent this is accepted among evangelicals. It was recently made very popular yet again with Tim LaHayes, and Jerry B. Jenkins, "Left Behind" series.
This is not some fringe movement I used as my example. This is an eschatology dogma among evangelicals.
Could we really call ourselves "Protestants", if we agreed with you? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> It would be like saying that the Protestant Reformation was all a mistake.
Tom <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />
You said it, not me! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
God bless you! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
I won't respond point by point, but concerning the pretribulation rapture, maybe you are unaware to what extent this is accepted among evangelicals. It was recently made very popular yet again with Tim LaHayes, and Jerry B. Jenkins, "Left Behind" series.
This is not some fringe movement I used as my example. This is an eschatology dogma among evangelicals.
Most of those who call ourselves "Reformed Protestants" understand how vast the error of pretribulation eschatology is. If you have been on the Highway long enough you would see how strongly this view is spoken against. That said, can the views held by people like Jerry Jenkins and Tim Lahaye, truly be concidered as part of Reformed Protestantism? I truly don't think it can, regardless of how much they may say otherwise.
averagefellar said: Your ploy to use emotions is sad indeed. As a "reformed enough" Christian (whatever that is since you still haven't defended that assertion) you certainly shouldn't be putting your emotions first.
Now, please define "reformed". I see many crosses in "reformed" churches.
Does your church have Sunday school?
Do you carry your own private set of scriptures to church?
Where are pulpits in scripture?
That's a good start.
God bless,
william
Well william,
We do not have crosses in our church or any other such symbols. Some of our churches have sunday schools in others the children stay in with the rest. Guilty on the personal bible one.Although with respect I have no idea what any of this has to do with idols. Yes we do have a pulpit. As to what my defination of reformed is one who believes in the doctrines of grace= T U L I P also the 5solas
I will be sure never to use emotion again. I look forward to your comments.
I was visiting my sister at BIOLA university(Bible Institute of Los Angelos) a well respected seminary of which she is now a graduate. (Yes, she's protestant, I'm working on her!) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />
I attended one of the weekday morning services there, and the speaker began to expound on Pretrib rapture, and then preached on other things, but interwoven through it all was referrences to pretrib. I asked about it and yes indeed, it was a hallmark of that seminaries, and it's one of many prominant seminaries that have pretrib as a doctrinal platform.
If you want to know what mainline Protestant Denominations teach and believe, you only need to refer to the seminaries, as you likely know already. I brought up Left Behind only to show what a following it has, but pretrib is not a pop culture trend, it's deeply seated in Protestant eschatology.
I could imagine myself pointing and laughing at them when the Antichrist comes and the rapture hasn't occurred, but I get the feeling when that happens, no one will be laughing. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/uhoh.gif" alt="" />
Now Lutheran services are far more similar to Catholic ones than in their observance of litergy and tradition. Martin Luther had disagreements with the Catholic Church but he didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Luther did retain the parts of the liturgy that were from scripture (the baby); however, he removed the unspeakable blasphemies of the Roman Mass (the bathwater):
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We beseech Thee, O Lord, by the merits of Thy saints, whose relics are here, and of all the saints, that Thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgive me all my sins
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Receive, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for mine own countless sins, offenses and negligences, and for all here present; as also for all faithful Christians living and dead
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We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation
Missale Romanum, English Translation from St. Andrews Daily Missal
You know well enough that the evangelical church is, by and large, not Reformed. If you have quibbles with the doctrines and practices of Reformed Christians, address those. Dispensationalism is indeed "fringe" within the Reformed church. Marian veneration, however, is mainstream in the Roman Church.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
