believingThomas asks: I recognize that you have appealed to the wording in sripture of John 17:2 and John 6:37. Only recently have I come to see these verses in a differerent light. I am considering the posibility these passages refer to predestination.
I wouldn't press those passages into areas in which they do not speak, nor IMHO, were they intended to address the subject of predestination. Jesus was specifically addressing the matter of the outward evidence which come from two types of individuals (hearts).
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There is a sense that I could say that a tree has a burden of fruit and there are good and bad apples on the tree. On the one hand, God "shakes the tree" and Jesus holds out a basket. God's predestined hand guides only the good apples into Jesus' basket.
Again, I think you are wresting these passages from their intended purpose. Further, by doing so you are clouding or even distorting the Lord's teaching which was there are only two kinds of individuals (trees); 1) those that have a good source (regenerated heart) who produce "good fruit", i.e., works which are pleasing and acceptable to God, and 2) those which have a bad source (unregenerate heart) who produce "bad fruit", i.e., works which are not pleasing to God and thus are unacceptable/rejected.
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Help me to understand that Jesus mentions He does not pray for the world (kosmos) in John 17:9 but God so loved the world (kosmos) in John 3:16. Obviously, by internal evidence alone, the kosmoi of these passages must be a different entity.
We must define the meaning/scope of any word which we find in Scripture by it's context. FYI, the word "kosmos" has seven different meanings in Scripture. You can read about this more and specifically how "world" is used in John 3:16 here:
Would you consider "..those whom You have given Me.." of John 17:9 to be all the Elect? Or only the disciples (the 12 whom Jesus called to follow Him during His earthly ministry)? John 17:2 seems to be less restrictive, that "as many as" most likely extends to individuals beyond the immediate 12.
I would take that phrase to mean both.... those immediately present with Christ, i.e., the disciples, which probably included far more than the Twelve and it extends to all those whom the Father predestinated to salvation.
You might want to peruse the extensive list of articles on these two subjects here:
You mean other than John 1:29; 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:15; 2 Peter 2:1, etc., etc., etc.?
I asked you to define KOSMOS by it's context scripturally. I believe defining it to mean, "ALL humanity without exception", would be incorrect. This is why I keep asking for exegetical commentary from you, instead of a list of proof texts. I have yet to get any such thing and doubt I will. In light of your failing examples, I'll offer some for you.......
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Vincent's Word Studies; (4) KOSMOS, which follows a similar line of development from the physical to the ethical sense; meaning (a) ornament, arrangement, order (1Pe_3:3); (b) the sum-total of the material universe considered as a system (Mat_13:35; Joh_17:5; Act_17:24; Phi_2:15). Compare Plato. “He who is incapable of communion is also incapable of friendship. And philosophers tell us, Callicles, that communion and friendship and orderliness and temperance and justice bind together heaven and earth and gods and men, and that this universe is therefore called Cosmos, or order, not disorder or misrule” (“Gorgias,” 508). (c) That universe as the abode of man (Joh_16:21; 1Jo_3:17). (d) The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race (Joh_1:29; Joh_4:42). (e) In the ethical sense, the sum-total of human life in the ordered world, considered apart from, alienated from, and hostile to God, and of the earthly things which seduce from God (Joh_7:7; Joh_15:18; Joh_17:9, Joh_17:14; 1Co_1:20, 1Co_1:21; 2Co_7:10; Jam_4:4).
Simply shows your consistent misuse of making KOSMOS have the same definition in every passage.
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Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (KJV)
Albert Barnes; Of the world - Of all mankind, Jew and Gentile.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)
Geneva Bible Translation Notes; 1Jo 2:2 - And he is the (b) propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the (c) whole world. (b) Reconciliation and intercession go together, to give us to understand that he is both advocate and high priest. (c) For men of all sorts, of all ages, and all places, so that this benefit being not to the Jews only, of whom he speaks as appears in (1Jo_2:7) but also to other nations.
As you can easily see now, context means everything. ALL usually does not mean without exception in any language.
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You're right. Calvinism fills all the holes by changing "all" and "world" to "elect" whenever meaning of the verse doesn't fit the L in TULIP.
No, we pay attention to context and theology. We don't look through our concordance or catechism and jot down a few passages that seem to uphold our view.
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No, His plan was a complete success. He gave Himself a ransom for all which will be testified in due time. 1 Tim. 2:4-6.
Here, 1Tim 2:10 study. Further examples of lack of contextual analysis. Are you seeing why proof-texting is bad?
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Let it not be thought that the Arminian by his doctrine escapes limited atonement. The truth is that he professes a despicable doctrine of limited atonement. He professes an atonement that is tragically limited in its efficacy and power, an atonement that does not secure the salvation of any. He indeed eliminates from the atonement that which makes it supremely precious to the Christian heart. In B. B. Warfield’s words, ‘the substance of the atonement is evaporated, that it may be given a universal reference’. What we mean is, that unless we resort to the position of universal restoration for all mankind--a position against which the witness of Scripture is decisive--an interpretation of the atonement in universal terms must nullify its properly substitutive and redemptive character. We must take our choice between a limited extent and a limited efficacy, or rather between a limited atonement and an atonement without efficacy. It either infallibly saves the elect or it actually saves none." (Murray, The Reformed Faith and Modern Substitutes, in The Presbyterian Guardian, 1935).
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Men are condemned because the righteousness of Christ has not been imputed to them. Romans 4:24, 25.
Those URLs have questions in them and show some dilemmas you created. You barely answered any, preferring to proof-text or answer by asking further questions; most designed to place words in another's mouth.
ATO'NE, v.i. Supposed to be compounded of at and one. L. ad and unus, unio.
1. To agree; to be in accordance; to accord. He and Aufidus can no more atone. Than violentest contrariety. [This sense is obsolete.]
2. To stand as an equivalent; to make reparation, amends or satisfaction for an offense or a crime, by which reconciliation is procured between the offended and offending parties. The murderer fell and blood atoned for blood. By what propitiation shall I atone for my former gravity. The life of a slave was deemed to be of so little value, that a very slight compensation atoned for taking it away.
3. To atone for, to make compensation or amends. This evil was atoned for by the good effects of the study of the practical physics of Aristotle. The ministry not atoning for their former conduct by any wise or popular measure.
ATO'NE, v.t. 1. To expiate; to answer or make satisfaction for. or each atone his guilty love with life. 2. To reduce to concord; to reconcile, as parties at variance; to appease. Websters
I have come to believe you are an arminian in reformed clothing. You deny that Christ's death was sufficient for salvation.
I have come to believe you are an arminian in reformed clothing. You deny that Christ's death was sufficient for salvation.
I never claimed to be Reformed; however, I also condemn the despicable Arminian doctrine of limited atonement that denies Christ's death was sufficient for the salvation of any.
The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. Men reject His imputed righteousness, but not because of any free agency of man to reject Christ (which both the Reformed and Arminian imagine), but because men remain in bondage to sin, death, and the devil and can not free themselves.
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