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#19812 Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:23 AM
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averagefellar,

Quote
Yes, the apostles taught this in scripture. It is your faulty interpretation that is the problem. I gave some quotes from early writers upholding calvinism. However, I see no reason to believe everything, doctrinally, was settled prior to 200a.d., by matter of council. Scripture was finished, and we had the truth. However, definitions of the trinity, formation of a canon, and various other matters were still being dealt with. Your assertion that since nobody put forth calvinistic beliefs makes it false is itself a false claim. The claim that doctrine had to be settled by a specific date is also out of sync with church history.
The Apostles did not teach limited atonement. That is the whole point. Nor total depravity, It has nothing to do with my interpretation. I would not attempt to interpret what the Holy Spirit has not only given once to all for all and has stated quite clearly that man should not interpret His Truth.
On the other hand why would it be necessary. He gave us All Truth and the Holy Spirit guards, protects and guides members of His Body in that Truth preserving it in that Body. of which He is Head. The fact that the Truth is consistant through history is the authentication of the work of the Holy Spirit.
The only Church Father you mentioned is Clement of Rome who was a disciple of both Peter and Paul, the 3rd Bishop of Rome and He taught universal redemption as your quote clearly stated.
So who taught total depravity and actually adopted it as doctrine. I'm not familiar enought with Roman Catholic theology but I know they accepted much of St Augustine. If not, it was first a doctrine, outside of a teaching, by the protestants with Calvin. Did Luther believe in total depravity as well? That hardly makes it Gospel from the beginning. Predestination is spoken of but dies not have the meaning you ascribe to it and it never is connected to election which is not taught either until Augustine and again not put into doctrine until the Protestant Reforrmation. Catholics do not believe in election.
Since Christianity has a 2000 year history there have been a lot of teachings. But teachings do not make doctrine. Most have been condenmned because they rarely follow the understanding of the faithful of the Truth once given.

A council does not develop doctrine. In all cases they show by the apophatic method what something is not based on the false teaching which prompted the council. Doctrine does not come from the Bible. Doctrine comes from and was given as the Truth that the Apostles delievered. The Bible recorded some of it, explained some, implied others. To understand the written portion one must have the whole, the Oral and the practice that was established even before the written came into being almost 25 years after the Ascension. We have plenty of early documents, including the Epistles of Clement, the Didache written in the first century, and many others that attest and validate the scriptures. Truth lies in the Church, The Body of Christ. I Tim 3:15.

Quote
The claim that doctrine had to be settled by a specific date is also out of sync with church history.
It was never a matter of being settled. They had it from the beginning. There is nothing in the Bible that they did not have from the beginning and understood it the same as the Church does today. That is what makes it Gospel. It is not a development thing, a deductionist method and surely not individual man determining for himself just what the Bible means in opposition to the way the Holy Spiirt works and in oppostion to the prohibition to private interpretation.. II Pet 1:20.

#19813 Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:17 AM
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averagefellar,

{quote]So man can choose not to die? Jesus spoke about mans ability.......[/quote] Yes, man can chose to die or to live. What is your meaning of man's ability.....?
By accepting Christ man lives with Christ in eternity. Man rejects God, he lives in eternity but spiritually separated- death.
How does Matt 19:24 play into this, I assume something to do with ability. But explain, or do I assume again.

John 6:44, No problem here, as he calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit works in this world calling all men through many and various means, scripture, spouses, events, but God does not decide for man. God does not force evil or virtue in man. Man is free to choose.

Quote
My comment: We also know that all men have this will because they naturally seek God.
Your response: Paul, the apostle says otherwise.......
Actually that was a misspelling. It should be a god. but it is also true as man from the beginning must in some way answer to God in the measure of what was given to him. See Romans 1:18-21.

Quote
Another false claim. I hope you actually offer some evidence for this claim. I'll offer some against it.......Roman delusions. I really think you should look into these things before you misrepresent them.
You can check it in the World's Almanac. This was several years ago so I would imagine its much higher. They will tell you they cannot list all of them but give you the approximation. Knowing what is in my telephone book shows with a 200,000 population, the baptist seem to have it in spades, all of different groups - 48 general baptist and 25 members of the Southern Conference,plus 178 general churches, plus several churches in each of the more major denomoniations as Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal etc. That is stunning that there are actually so many understandings of the Bible all from man's intriguing ability to attempt to interpret. And none agree on what it actually says. Just to put others into perspective, 12 Catholic and 3 Orthodox. Having lived in Chicago for a time, this check would prove interesting. It is a heavy Catholic city but given the population, it might be staggering. You spend so much time and effort in detemining truth, that if and when you find it, you may not have the chance to live it. After all, it is a lived phenonomon, not a knowledge thing which seems more agin to what is happening.
Protestantism is multiplying like an ameba. It will implode on itself if the proliferation of so-called truth keeps growing at it current rate. And believe it, as most will state, this is the work of the Holy Spirit????

#19814 Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:56 AM
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Yes, but how do you get around this contradiction. That man is responsible for acts that are deceed by God. Simply, it is not in scripture.

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Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Act 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

(KJV)

Quote
So my nature has a will which works great until I want to chose God. I can chose to do moral good and moral evil but I cannot chose God. Explain please scripturally.

Quote
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(KJV)

Quote
That is a free choice you just gave to me. But God also said that whosoever seeks Him He will in no way cast out.

Once again, so you'll PLEASE stop misrpresenting, I believe people make choices. What did Paulm say in Romans 3 about seekers again?

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Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (KJV)

underlines mine

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You have so many contradictions that just do not align with scripture let alone within your own understanding.

I haven't seen you quote one passage and accurately interpret it.


God bless,

william

#19815 Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:08 AM
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Matt 19:24 play into this, I assume something to do with ability. But explain, or do I assume again.

Read it clearly. A merely possible salvation is no salvation.

Quote
John 6:44, No problem here, as he calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit works in this world calling all men through many and various means, scripture, spouses, events, but God does not decide for man. God does not force evil or virtue in man. Man is free to choose.

I am not sure you are reading my posts. I Haze asked for exegesis showing God "draws all humans once before. I don't think all the alls and worlds have the same contextual meaning. For you to force the same meaning on each passage is poor scholarship. In verse 44, what happens to those Christ draws? I have also repeatedly claimed that we do make decisions.

Quote
You can check it in the World's Almanac. This was several years ago so I would imagine its much higher. They will tell you they cannot list all of them but give you the approximation. Knowing what is in my telephone book shows with a 200,000 population, the baptist seem to have it in spades, all of different groups - 48 general baptist and 25 members of the Southern Conference,plus 178 general churches, plus several churches in each of the more major denomoniations as Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal etc. That is stunning that there are actually so many understandings of the Bible all from man's intriguing ability to attempt to interpret. And none agree on what it actually says. Just to put others into perspective, 12 Catholic and 3 Orthodox. Having lived in Chicago for a time, this check would prove interesting. It is a heavy Catholic city but given the population, it might be staggering. You spend so much time and effort in detemining truth, that if and when you find it, you may not have the chance to live it. After all, it is a lived phenonomon, not a knowledge thing which seems more agin to what is happening.
Protestantism is multiplying like an ameba. It will implode on itself if the proliferation of so-called truth keeps growing at it current rate. And believe it, as most will state, this is the work of the Holy Spirit????

I know you are yammering now. That evidence doesn't even come close to your original claim, yet you choose to continue to put forth Romish lies. You really haven't brought anything new to this discussion and we dismiss Romes parrots as noisy birds.


God bless,

william

#19816 Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:12 AM
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Doctrine does not come from the Bible. Doctrine comes from and was given as the Truth that the Apostles delievered. The Bible recorded some of it, explained some, implied others. To understand the written portion one must have the whole, the Oral and the practice that was established even before the written came into being almost 25 years after the Ascension.

I know you'll tire of my asking, but, scripture please?


God bless,

william

#19817 Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:07 AM
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Quote
I thought I already stated that as well, but you may have missed that as well or just misunderstand that too. Orthodox.
Orthodox WHAT? There is the OPC, there is the Orthodox Church or America, Greek Orthodox, The Christian Coptic Orthodox Church Of Egypt, etc.

Quote
It is up above somewhere. I did all ten texts that I had previously given to you and all the explanations preceding your original request touched on those ten. So you have them twice since I have been conversing with you.
That is not exegesis. Do you know what exegesis is?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#19818 Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:34 AM
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sojourner said:
St Augustine believed man had a will. You take his teaching of predestination and total depravity but not the idea man has a will. Why not. Was he wrong with that aspect of his view?

Augustine recanted free will in his treatise, De Praedestinatione:

Quote
I erred in this, that I held that the grace of God consists only in this, that God in the preaching of the truth reveals His will; but that our consenting to the preached Gospel is our own work, and is within our own powers... I erred when I said that it is within our own power to believe the Gospel and to will; but it is God's work to give to them that believe and will the power to effect something.

The Arminians deny total depravity, predestination, and the enslaved will. Would you consider their churches to be Orthodox?

#19819 Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:09 PM
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J Edwards,

Quote
Orthodox WHAT?
They are all listed on this site.
http://www.oca.org./pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Churches/index.htm

Quote
That is not exegesis. Do you know what exegesis is?
That is the interpretation, the explanation of the texts. They have meant that for quite some time, say 2000 years. What do you want me to do, redefine them first so they match your interpretation?

#19820 Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:19 PM
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speratus,

Quote
Augustine recanted free will in his treatise, De Praedestinatione:

Thanks for the information. Another reason the Orthodox do not use Augustine. However, Roman Catholics took much of his writings, but apparently not his denial of free will.

Quote
The Arminians deny total depravity, predestination, and the enslaved will. Would you consider their churches to be Orthodox?
Not just on those three doctrines. Obviously, they are not, but that does not mean they could apply.

#19821 Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:26 PM
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averagefellar,

Quote
I know you'll tire of my asking, but, scripture please?
The scripture was not written during this time. That is why you have so much trouble understanding something that is based on the whole, but itself is only part. You have thrown this portion out as unreliable because you lack faith that the Holy Spirit can actually do what He promised.
You just want the written portion, then deduce from it what you think something might mean. And we know how well that works.

#19822 Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:30 PM
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Offer something besides sarcasm, please.


God bless,

william

#19823 Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:35 PM
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I really couldn't fathom any response from you.

Quote
You have thrown this portion out as unreliable because you lack faith that the Holy Spirit can actually do what He promised.

What have I thrown out? Quote me claiming I don't believe the Holy Spirit can accomplish His purpose? Indeed, I claim exactly the opposite of that, Jesus actually saved.


God bless,

william

#19824 Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:18 PM
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averagefeller,

Quote
I am not sure you are reading my posts. I Haze asked for exegesis showing God "draws all humans once before. I don't think all the alls and worlds have the same contextual meaning. For you to force the same meaning on each passage is poor scholarship. In verse 44, what happens to those Christ draws? I have also repeatedly claimed that we do make decisions.
Who needs scholarship. It was handed on a "silver plater" so to speak. The Holy Spirit imparted to the disciples ALL TRUTH, why must I even attempt to decipher, when the explanations have been in existance for 2000 years. I don't need to justify some man-made suppositions and try to make them fit my scholarship.
That you don't accept them, but rather must depend on your feeble mind to deduce and make up your own as you go is your choice.
The difference is you depend on yourself to arrive at truth. I depend on Christ through the Holy Spirit and accept by Faith what He has provided as His ONE plan of salvation.

Regarding your other questions: Man choses life or death as a result of the call of the Holy Spirit working on all of mankind. Of Course, all, in Acts 1:17 means "some" in your dictionary as in other places. Just so your grand scholorship can get scripture to align the way you want it.
Christianity does not come by scholarship. OH, can you give me scripture on that, please.

Quote
That evidence doesn't even come close to your original claim
That being I don't have an Almanac handy. It is not worth for me to go to the Library for you.
However, here is a statistic from the World Christian Encyclopedia:
"According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world today." I forgot to check the date on the Enc but it is probably several years old for sure based on its cover.

So, it may look like 40,000 might be somewhat understated. The problem is that Christ only established ONE, so we have a lot of immitation churches. Are there really that many doctrines, how could they possibly differ so much? I think this must be somewhat like the OT in Judges, where it says, Each did what was right in his own eyes.
I think you have a problem with your concept of scholarship.

#19825 Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:33 PM
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averagefellar,

Quote
I haven't seen you quote one passage and accurately interpret it.
Obviously, how would anyone know what your personal gospel is in totality. All I know it is not close to the Gospel once given, Jude 3.
What chance would I have in getting it right with even a 1000 different understandings available, being on the conservative side. That number might be more palatable than the real number for you.

What is even more amazing is that of all those out there, you believe that only yours is right. I think that is also called arrogance and self-centeredness. But I give you credit for searching. Keep at, someday you will find it, and when you do, hopefully you will answer the Holy Spirit in the postive, as He is calling you to the fullness of the Gospel.

#19826 Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:27 PM
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I am starting a new thread, Total Depravity with scriptural support. Feel free to post there. The discussion here has come down to you posting few scriptures and repeating your invalid claims of "once handed down", though you have not shown that anybody believed what you claim. Simply stating such means nothing.


God bless,

william

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