What would you say to this person if he/she wrote to you?
"Because you are still living in sin, as indicated by your current engagement in a homosexual relationship, I cannot knowingly invite you to join us in the worship of the one true God without your prior expression of repentance and confession of Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sin is at its very base a hatred of God, and it manifests itself in the breaking of the law of God, be that in a life of money-worship, lying and deceit, or immoral sexual practice. Because we have all sinned, we all deserve eternal damnation. However God, in His great mercy, has chosen to save a remnant of mankind for Himself. By faith in Christ, whose death paid the debt of sin, these believers receive the forgiveness of God, and are set apart for a life of service and obedience to Him. Friend, repent and believe and you will be saved, and I and the whole church will joyfully welcome you into fellowship. But if you will not repent, you remain in your sins, and we cannot have spiritual fellowship with you because you are not in fellowship with God. I pray that God may grant you repentance and salvation."
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
I asked the person if they believe the Bible is the God's word. He responded: "yes I do". I then asked him to look at a few passages on homosexuality and tell me what they mean. His response was exactly what the author had in mind. Over the next few weeks and months, I saw this person repent and it was obvious that this person had been converted. As far as I know (though I lost touch with him) he is still on the straight and narrow.
In this particular case, all I had to do is point him to the Bible and let the Holy Spirit have His way. Fortunately, in this case I didn't have to rebuke him because of incorrect use of Scripture.
1. He and his staff are encouraging the church to step out in faith to engage lost people in the context of the world beyond the walls of the church.
I believe this goes without saying. While I do believe there are lost folks within the visible church, I do not consider it a mission field per se. Engaging the lost where they are isn't difficult, either. Unless you stay in your home, you engage lost folks regularly. At the supermarket, Wal-Mart, the gun store, etc., all have lost people in them.
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2. He is encouraging them to not worry about compromising their convictions. As an example he uses the story of the young person who has “dropped the biblical definitions of sin, and the example of Jesus in John 8.
Still not sure how John 8 teaches us to drop our definitions of sin. I am worried about compromising my convictions. Compromising sound principles is the slippery slope the evan-jelly-cal's went down.
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3. The challenge is to balance both intolerance of sin with grace (& love).
J_Edwards said: Ted, I do know the answer, however I am interested in yours? You seem to be avoiding the question/answer?
No avoidance. No games. I merely thought that I had answered Jeff's question adequately. Apparently not to your satisfaction. Please forgive me.
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J_Edwards said: Your "God loves those whom He has called to Himself, my brother," did not answer Jeff's question. He asked you to comment on "and though God always loves us, He hates our sin."
Does God always love us? How does God always love us and hate our sin? How much does God hate us? In what ways does God love us? etc.
Based on what I read and understand of scripture, God does NOT love all people.
First of all, we know from scripture that God hates sinners. "There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV)
And we know from scripture that "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." (Romans 3:23 ESV)
Therefore, the only way we can become "right" with God (in order to be loved by Him) is through the atonement provided by Christ on the cross. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1-2)
And we know that Christ's atoning work was not done for all, but for His elect. As Jesus said, "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45 ESV)
At this point I could cite many more texts (John 17:9, Matthew 26:28, Ephesians 5:25, etc.) but, I pray, you get the point. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
Yours in Christ, Ted
P.S. Joe: Sorry I was a bit of a jerk in my private email to you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I had a HARD day at the office today. (No excuse, however.) PLEASE forgive me.
as you have stated here. However, I don't believe one must throw limited atonement into people's faces. That is not a principal they must grasp in order to respond to the Gospel.
And anyway, so what.......the number of the "elect" is many many many people down through the ages. And since I don't know who the elect ones are individually, I'll assume anyone I meet is of the elect, and act accordingly.
I would never require repentance in order for someone to simply visit my church.
Which is why I would write the same letter to the "inquirer" as pastor Andy.
PaulRH said: as you have stated here. However, I don't believe one must throw limited atonement into people's faces. That is not a principal they must grasp in order to respond to the Gospel.
In the "response" I gave, did I state the doctrine of limited atonement with force? Nope. But neither did I lie and say that God loves everyone unconditionally. That is simply not true and the pastor was WRONG to say so in his letter.
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And anyway, so what.......the number of the "elect" is many many many people down through the ages. And since I don't know who the elect ones are individually, I'll assume anyone I meet is of the elect, and act accordingly.
You shouldn't assume anyone is elect!
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I would never require repentance in order for someone to simply visit my church.
Which is why I would write the same letter to the "inquirer" as pastor Andy.
All right, Paul, so let's say that the person writing was not, in fact, a homosexual, but actually a murderer who was wondering if he and his partner in crime would be accepted in your church. Would you allow them to attend and join in worship knowing that they were unrepentant murderers?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
PaulRH said: However, I don't believe one must throw limited atonement into people's faces. That is not a principal they must grasp in order to respond to the Gospel.
I agree with you here, Paul. I do.
However, let's not forget that there is something more important than helping a non-believer come to faith. What is that? Glorifying God.
1Peter 2:12 - Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Phillipians 1:11 - Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
John 15:8 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Sometimes, Paul, I think that we (I include myself in this here, I do!) are soooo busy trying to woo sinners, that we forget that God and His Word a sufficient to do all that and more.
1Timothy 3:16-17 - All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
I exhort you to trust in the sufficiency of God and His most precious and holy Word to woo sinners to Himself.
1. I believe the Gospel is offered unconditioanlly therefore everyone in that sense is loved by God. 2. I assume everyone I meet is elect. I have no reason not to. God doesn't grant me or anyone discernment into a person's ultimate eternal destiny. 3. No. Murderers are criminals.
9.) Perimeter’s Worship Services are designed for believers to worship God. We are not a "seeker service" in that we do not place our highest priority for gathering on winning seekers, but rather on equipping believers and enabling them to worship as a corporate community. However, the seeker is very important to us and thus every attempt is made to use our worship as an opportunity for the seeker to meet God. We believe biblical worship is an excellent way to expose the seeker to God’s Word and God’s people.
PaulRH said: 1. I believe the Gospel is offered unconditioanlly therefore everyone in that sense is loved by God. 2. I assume everyone I meet is elect. I have no reason not to. God doesn't grant me or anyone discernment into a person's ultimate eternal destiny. 3. No. Murderers are criminals.
Do you assume that ALL are millionaires to see if a few may be?
We are not suppose to assume that ANY are elect and share the Gospel from that perspective (i.e. presumptive regeneration <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />). We share what we know. What do we know? EVERYONE is a sinner. This is a fact, not an assumption and the proper perspective to share the Gospel from. Paul says,
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Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.
Here Paul is not assuming everyone is elect for he knows that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and will have compassion on whom He will have compassion (Rom 9:15). He has a heart desire and prayer that they may be saved, which reveals he assumes they are lost sinners. In addition, he adds, “they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge…,” revealing their lost state. Paul assumes his audience is lost and thus preached to them life in faith, hope, & the surety that God would convert the truly repentant called sinner in the 'fulness of time,' thus, revealing that repentant sinners (but, not all sinners) are elect from before the foundation of the world, etc.
"av said This blurs the line between visible church members and the world. COuld you provide scripture for this approach?"
It doesn't blur the lines at all. It keeps me from making judgements about others.
I know all are sinners. Those I meet who are not believers, have not repentad yet, I will not judge as being "unelect". That's not up to me.I don't believe the 2 statements contradict each other.
