The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum A paper for BCM

Hi Patrice,

Unfortunately it is not only the arminian churches that demand one to sign their stated "deprivations". We were once denied membership in a "Baptist" & "Presbyterian" church because we would not sign their "pledge" to refrain from all alcohol! Talk about binding one's consience! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

In His Hands,

Ruth

Is this a reformed Baptist position? That seems pretty bold of them. I thought that this way of thinking was more closely associated with premillenial dispensationalism which we were supposed to commit to as well. Oh how thankful I am that I was delivered from this dangerous and harmful teaching. Are you acquainted with the Victorious Christian Living movement? These heresies almost shipwrecked my faith. Perhaps it was a blessing that you were turned away.

Hi Luke,

I don't have much to add to what others have already said, other than to wonder if, perhaps, your reasons for not signing would be easier to discern if you kept it to the matter of their prohibition against alcohol and how they are attempting to bind your conscience in an unbiblical manner. Often it is most effective when writing a persuasive argument to choose your strongest and best supported point and build a Biblical case than to try to prove so many points. You might want to take a look at Chapter 22 of the WCF (On Lawful Oaths and Vows) along with the suppporting scriptures to help you think through what is most important to you.

First of all I didn't read your paper, but I picked up a good bit from other posts in this thread, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. Personally, I would be very hesitant and probably wouldn't sign the document. From the struggle with sin in my own life and how much I constantly fail, I just don't see how I could in good faith sign the document. I suppose this may be a defeatist attitude, but it's also the reality of who I am. I'll take one of the "lighter" sins as an example: gossip. If I signed the document, I honestly don't think I'd make it 1 day without breaking the commitment at least to a small degree, unless I just didn't open my mouth. Cursing I could get by on externally, but I do find myself occasionally cursing in my mind even though I don't express it verbally. So it seems the commitment itself is focused on external behavior and not the nature of the heart, which I think could be a problem. As for drinking alcohol, I don't consider that necessarily a sin and actually enjoy having a drink on occasion. Even if I never drank, I don't think I could sign it because I feel like it would be supporting the idea that all drinking is a sin (which I don't think is Biblical). As for the sexually related commitments, I pray often that God will be always be merciful and keep me from falling in this area. I agree with chestnutmare that we should always strive to live pure lives and flee from these sins. But, I still don't know if I would sign a commitment against these. As I said above, I know the root of those sins are always lurking in my heart. When I look back on my life, I can really see God's hand in preventing me from messing up big in those areas. Often, I can see now that He was gracious by removing opportunities at those times when I was particularly weak.

Another big reason why I wouldn't sign the commitment is because I know that the commitment itself might become a snare for me. One of our main motives for living a pure and holy life is out of gratitude and love for him and for Christ. God is concerned about our motives as well as our external actions. The commitment seems to be focused only on external appearances. I could easily see myself beginning to fall into the trap of, say, if I had the desire to look at pornography, to not do it because I had signed the commitment instead of because it's a sin against a holy God. So externally, everything looks good, but internally your motives are being diverted away from God.

Furthermore, I think commitments like this lead to dishonesty among Christians. For example, if you had signed the commitment and then failed in one of the areas, just the fact that you signed the commitment may put pressure on you to cover it up. There is nothing more frustrating to me then being in a group of "Christians" where it seems everybody is trying put on their "best face". Of course, I'm not saying we should go throwing out every single sin we do in front of everyone, but it's refreshing to be able confess sins without worrying that everyone is judging you.

I guess what I'm saying is as Christians we should strive to live holy and pure lives, but I don't think signing commitments is the way to go about it. Hope these ponderings help. If any of my ramblings are un-Biblical, please feel free to correct me.


John

Thank you John. I think that you have actually made some very convincing points. I am in agreement with you there. Thanks for sharing.
Patrice

So Luke have you decided what your going to do? I personally wouldn't sign the paper for reasons already articulated by such worthies as William and Pilgrim. But what have decided to do? And have you presented your paper to the BCM and if so what was their response. BTW I checked with a SBC friend of mine and he assured me that what you posted was sop for that organization which I found amazing.

Well, just to fill everyone in, I turned in my papers Sunday evening before our "Fire Team" (which is where we lead worship for one of the local churches). I turned in all 9 pages which I'd posted here, plus my application, still unsigned, as well as 22 pages concerning fire team (20 of which were my e-mails, so we'd know that it wasn't necessarily my fault that there was a communcations problem about fire team). The first comment was, "It looks like a term paper." And then I mentioned that I wrote it between 2 and 7 in the morning and they were astonished, but thankful that I hadn't tried to get into any etymology and that I hadn't included any copies of the sermons Pilgrim so kindly provided links too (though I did mention them and a similar sermon by Calvin, just in passing, which would have been about 28 more pages in Word at size 10 font). We had fire team (I gave my testimony, and nearly started to preach about the neccesity of showing love and hospitality), and our coordinator stayed and talked to me for almost another hour in the freezing cold wind outside, finally mentioning that it wasn't her descision but Council's, but that she would read the document before their meeting yesterday at 4.

I drove to the church I attend on Sundays and waited around awhile to speak to the youth minister to get his advice (and his was pretty much the same as y'all have provided) but it helped to calm me a little. Came home and prayed.

I didn't do much Monday (yesterday) but when I got to BCM no one said anything about the paper or the meeting, and I didn't feel right asking, so I waited, and finally after words I was asked to stay behind till everyone left for dinner so that the 5 of us could discuss the matter. Nothing we hadn't already said to each other was said, though the General Baptist couldn't wrap her mind around the idea of something being wrong but not being wrong in and of itself (I guess she hasn't taken ethics). They offered to let me write something that would keep to the spirit of what they're saying but would be acceptable to me, so I have to do that sometime in the next couple of days. IF they agree on that, then it's almost gauranteed that I'll be on council next year and that perhaps whatever I write will replace this 5th page they came up with.

That meeting was an hour. Then I followed it up with another meeting about tonight, we have a skit to do to advertise BCM, which we just found out about last night, so I'll have to go back out to campus around 8 or 9 tonight and perform as it were. Well, the meeting was at Krissy's apartment (Krissy is the girl I like, and also a current member of council) and so after the "meeting" I was told to stay awhile (even though I had a Mass Comm test today), and so I stayed until the 3 girls headed to bed at about 12:30.

I got home about 1 and just couldn't get to sleep (and I figured I'd skip my Mass Comm class anyway) and so finally I did get some sleep. My dad woke me at 6 wanting me to take him to work, but I said I hadn't slept well and it wouldn't affect me if I missed today (which I just found out, depends on whether my Mass Comm prof feels nice today or not when he reads my e-mail). Either way, I'm already loosing a point or two b/c I missed today, so it remains to be seen if he'll give me the chance to make this 1/4 of the grade up late tomorrow morning.

Well, that is surely everything you wanted to know and probably a little more than you needed too. Prayer is always appreciated. And hey, if you've read this far thru this post, thank you, bless you.

bye bye

Bro. Luke

Well, I read the whole thing! And I'll continue to pray.

Well Luke if they do allow you to write up something that will not violate your conscience and yet fulfill their mandate (such as it is) I think your got the best of both worlds. And if you can create meaningful change then good for you. Its always good to see organizations become more scriptural rather than less. Hopefully the Lord will use you in their reformation. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Hi again,
As I believe I said about a week ago, they (the Council) gave me a chance to write up another statement which we (the Council and I) could mutually agree upon. I got a bit busy and distracted at the later end of last week, but I finally wrote everything out and typed it out in Word (and I did spell check this time). So, I probably should have gotten this to the council last Saturday, but since I wasn't quite done and didn't have access to a computer until yesterday (Monday) and we're on spring break, I'm thinking I can get away with waiting as late as next Monday before handing this thing in (though if you guys give me positive reviews, I might send it to the Council via e-mail at the end of the week). So, without further delay, here it is, my attempt at a mutually agreeable last page to the BCM application. SO go on and lay it on me, tell me where I'm wrong and what sounds awkward and what I should add or subtract, give it to me. Oh, and before anybody mentions it, I know, I haven't put in proof text, I haven't given scripture sites, and I should, but I believe everything I've placed in here will be from scriptures that just about anybody with any knowledge of the New Testament will know.

Once again, thank you for your patience and for your critiques.

Bro. Luke
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />

Hi Luke,

Have you sent your changes, and if so, how were they received?

Gotribe, to answer your question, I have not sent my 2 page counter-proposal which I posted on the 8th. I was waiting to see if anyone would comment, but so far, only 6 people have downloaded it and I've only gotten 1 response to it,

I'm not sure what to make of it. The way I see it, either everyone's bored with this thread, or I didn't say anything of consequence one way or another and so no one feels the need to comment, or I've somehow, unintentionally, so offended everyone that they don't want to talk to me anymore. I'm choosing to air on the side of optimism and guess that everyone is out doing something important or that everything I said is so unarguable or so plain and simple, that no one feels it important enough to comment on.

I'll probably send a copy via e-mail tonight and then take a few tomorrow night to B.C.M., then I have to wait until all 4 of them have read it and considered it (let us hope they consider it) and then they'll undoubtebly tell me I made this too complicated, and then I think they'll accept it and then we just have to wait for the entire B.C.M. to vote. This is assuming that Council will accept my counter-proposal even though it's 2 weeks after the applications were due. I feel assured that if I get past council with this, then I'll be on council next year with the title of "Director of Evangelism" which is a fancy way of saying I'll be doing what I've done this last semester and attending the Council meetings, but hey, there's always the chance I'll get to preach a few nights next year.

I thank you very much for your help and the interest you've shown, it is encourageing.

"The Lord bless and keep you . . ."

Bro. Luke

Well, just so anybody who's interested knows, I did indeed send a counter proposal Sunday night, a document I thought we could all mutually come to an agreement on. I got an answer last night (Monday the 14th). I find it ironic that this is my 100th post on here and I have to say that the answer I got last night was "No." and I didn't even get a definitive reason.

Needless to say, I'm slightly disappointed, and a little bit displeased, because it's been suggested that I go on and do the things I'd applied to do even though I won't be afforded a seat or a vote on council. The illogic of that is furthered by the fact that there wasn't anyone else applying for the position. In fact, out of the 6 to 10 formally named positions, only 2 were applied for. We had one current council person reapply, and two freshman girls apply. No one applied for the presidency either. So, for whatever the reason, wether my sex, my ethics, my calvinism, my manner of handling things, my manner of speach, or for whatever other reason that may possibly have been found, I have been rejected.

Just thought I'd bring some closure to the thread and mention that.

Bro. Luke