J_Edwards said: Speratus, though it was “your post,” for your sake I will quote the whole phrase, so you can see it more clearly:
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We do not teach an irresistible grace or an irresistible working of the Holy Spirit through the gospel in word and sacrament. We therefore acknowledge that it is conceivable or sadly possible that an infant might somehow despise the gift of faith truly promised, offered, and given in baptism.
The two sections from the WELS Q&A that you have highlighted were the very sections that immediately jumped out at me as being inadvertent mistakes (or at least problematic).
"We do not teach an irresistible grace or an irresistible working of the Holy Spirit through the gospel in word and sacrament." This statement is problematic for Lutherans because it seems to imply that one child resists the grace offered more or less than another child. The statement might be acceptable to the Reformed because they disconnect the general and effectual call.
The use of the phrase "given in baptism" which respect to a child who despises the gift of faith is also problematic. The gift of faith is truly offered and promised in the sacraments but how can faith be "given in baptism" if it is not received?
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J Edward asksNow if faith is truly given "in" baptism and later genuinely rejected this is (1) Arminianism (2) inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph as posted afore by you, (3) and presents a false doctrine--heresy.
A good question although off-topic. How does man fall from the grace actually received in baptism? Perhaps a new thread should be started to explore this subject.
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J Edwards statesSperatus, faith (saving faith, whether active or passive) is not normally given at baptism (of course, I allow for those occurrences where God sees fit to give such). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" />
I hestitate to say whether saving faith first received before, in, or after baptism is normative. We follow God's command to take our children to divine services as soon as possible after they are conceived to hear preaching and we have them baptized as soon as possible after they are born. When and where God works faith through word and sacrament is according to God's good and sovereign pleasure.
J EdwardsOur faith does not stand in the works of man (i.e. water baptism), but in the power of God. Your doctrine is more akin to RCC than anything—salvation through the administration of the priests.
This accusation has already been sufficiently refuted.
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J EdwardsLastly, baptism is a sign and seal of the covenant to a child. This does not mean they have faith, nor does it mean they are elect. The Scripture declares that both elect and the non-elect may be part and parcel of God’s covenant to fulfill God’s purpose in all the earth.
Christ places His mark on all baptized babies, whether they are ever regenerate or not. Do non-elect babies obtain any benefit from baptism when they reject the grace of God truly offered and promised to them through the sacrament? No. Baptism, for the person baptized, is not a matter of keeping the law. It is through faith alone, given where and when it pleases God, that the grace of God is received. Should we question the good and sovereign command of God to baptize non-elect babies who pertain to the promise? No.
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J EdwardsPlease see the account of Crib Calvinist for more.:
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Crib CalvinistI could look back at my baptism and see where God had put me in covenant with Him early on. This meant that God had a responsibility to me and I to Him. Though this did not guarantee my salvation, it still put certain obligations upon both of us (me and God that is). God and His people were faithful to train me up and love me though I did not deserve it. See I learned that God was faithful to His covenant, though I was not.
The Crib Calvinist turns the grace of God freely offered in baptism into a synergistic work, "Though this did not guarantee my salvation, it {baptism} still put certain obligations upon both of us (me and God that is)." Baptism is not a covenant between God and man but a testament of God's grace toward fallen man who can do nothing to save himself.
Our faith does not stand in the works of man (i.e. water baptism), but in the power of God. Your doctrine is more akin to RCC than anything—salvation through the administration of the priests. _____
Speratus dreams,
This accusation has already been sufficiently refuted.
Pray tell where, inquiring minds desire to know?
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JE said,
Lastly, baptism is a sign and seal of the covenant to a child. This does not mean they have faith, nor does it mean they are elect. The Scripture declares that both elect and the non-elect may be part and parcel of God’s covenant to fulfill God’s purpose in all the earth. _____
Speratus assumes,
Christ places His mark on all baptized babies, whether they are ever regenerate or not. Do non-elect babies obtain any benefit from baptism when they reject the grace of God truly offered and promised to them through the sacrament? No.
Sorry, wrong again. Covenant children, even the non-elect ones, have the benefit of the teaching of the Word, of a Christian example in the home, the Church, of prayers, etc., which are all part and parcel of covenant relationship.
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JE said,
I could look back at my baptism and see where God had put me in covenant with Him early on. This meant that God had a responsibility to me and I to Him. Though this did not guarantee my salvation, it still put certain obligations upon both of us (me and God that is). God and His people were faithful to train me up and love me though I did not deserve it. See I learned that God was faithful to His covenant, though I was not. _____
Speratus Arminianizes,
The Crib Calvinist turns the grace of God freely offered in baptism into a synergistic work, "Though this did not guarantee my salvation, it {baptism} still put certain obligations upon both of us (me and God that is)." Baptism is not a covenant between God and man but a testament of God's grace toward fallen man who can do nothing to save himself.
Where did I say that God is obligated to save one in the covenant—I didn't. The Covenant view rests upon election, predestination, grace alone (mongerism, not synergism), etc. for salvation.
Moreover, God is obligated to His covenant, which you are assuming only has blessing, however cursings also apply for those who break it! Every Covenant deals with the justice of God and not only God’s love, provision, blessing, etc.! God does not violate the covenant even when He condemns the non-elect covenant members to Hell. God fulfills His obligation!
J_Edwards said: Sorry, wrong again. Covenant children, even the non-elect ones, have the benefit of the teaching of the Word, of a Christian example in the home, the Church, of prayers, etc., which are all part and parcel of covenant relationship.
How are these things of any benefit to the non-elect? These things only add to their condemnation under the law.
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Moreover, God is obligated to His covenant, which you are assuming only has blessing, however cursings also apply for those who break it! Every Covenant deals with the justice of God and not only God’s love, provision, blessing, etc.! God does not violate the covenant even when He condemns the non-elect covenant members to Hell. God fulfills His obligation!
You're the one who finds a benefit to the non-elect in baptism. The non-regenerate are hardened in unbelief. Baptism demands faith which only the Holy Ghost gives not works of a covenant.
The "mark" of Christ would be one Baptism for the remission of sin (Eph. 4:5). This "mark" entails the application of water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19). Any minister who rebaptizes a person whom he knows to have already received the "mark" of Christ sins against the command of God: one baptism for the remission of sin.
speratus said: The "mark" of Christ would be one Baptism for the remission of sin (Eph. 4:5).
You must be using the "DSV" (Devised Standard Version) edition of the Bible because all the versions I have read similar to this:
Ephesians 4:5 (ASV) "one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Could you point out where in those 6 words is the phrase, "mark of Christ"? Or, could you point me to ANY verse in the entire Bible that contains the phrase, "mark of Christ"?
NOTE: There are 36 verses in the Bible that have the word "mark" in them. There are 18,578 verses in the Bible that have the word "of" in them. And there are 533 verses in the Bible that have the word "Christ" in them. But there are no verses in the Bible that contain the phrase "mark of Christ" in them that I can find.
OK, let's forget about the "mark" of Christ and agree to use only the universal expression of the catholic church. Do you acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sin? Or, do you believe baptized infants are or should be rebaptized when they grow up and feel they have become regenerate?
speratus said: OK, let's forget about the "mark" of Christ and agree to use only the universal expression of the catholic church. Do you acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sin? Or, do you believe baptized infants are or should be rebaptized when they grow up and feel they have become regenerate?
I acknowledge the biblical teaching of "one baptism" which is to be administered by any of three methods; aspersion, effusion or immersion in the name of the Triune God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and except in the most extreme and rare situations, by one who has been called and ordained to the office of Elder.
I believe there is no necessity for rebaptism, although I certainly can understand why some might desire to have this done given the circumstances that surrounded their original baptism. I also believe it is not a sin to be rebaptized.
But pray tell, what does THIS have to do with your original contention that a believer may fall from grace and perish due to God's withdrawing of His hand as He so wills? It has been clearly shown that the "gifts and calling of God are immutable" and thus all who are united to Christ by a living faith will be infallibly saved and raised up on the last day. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
How are these things of any benefit to the non-elect? These things only add to their condemnation under the law.
Speratus, are you saying God's Word, the prayer of the faithful, and the communion of saints are not beneficial to others? Christians have no effective witness in the world? Are you saying the influence of Christ has no effect on the non-elect at all? How can God be sovereign if He has no influence on the non-elect? Your failure to see that the Holy Spirit can influence nothing besides redemption is indeed saddening.
The non-elect have many benefits both directly and indirectly by the works of saints and the work of the Holy Spirit in the world. Have you ever heard of Common Grace? Were the children of Israel influenced by being members of Covenant families, by being members of a Covenant nation (Duet 29:10-13; Joel 2:16)? As Jesus said to Zacchaeus upon his conversion (Luke 19:9), "To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham." When Zacchaeus believed, his household was incorporated into the covenant. Do you think this was without influence? What do you do with I Corinthians 7:14?
While indeed being members of the covenant and later rejecting this does have eternal and deepening consequences (Heb 10:29-31), being members (non-elect) of the Covenant has temporary benefit. Consider Lot’s wife?
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Matthew 5:45 …. for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Pilgrim said: But pray tell, what does THIS have to do with your original contention that a believer may fall from grace and perish due to God's withdrawing of His hand as He so wills? It has been clearly shown that the "gifts and calling of God are immutable" and thus all who are united to Christ by a living faith will be infallibly saved and raised up on the last day. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
In His Grace,
I will answer on the thread, "How can saving faith truly received be later rejected."
How are these things of any benefit to the non-elect? These things only add to their condemnation under the law.
Speratus, are you saying God's Word, the prayer of the faithful, and the communion of saints are not beneficial to others? Christians have no effective witness in the world? Are you saying the influence of Christ has no effect on the non-elect at all? How can God be sovereign if He has no influence on the non-elect? Your failure to see that the Holy Spirit can influence nothing besides redemption is indeed saddening.
The non-elect have many benefits both directly and indirectly by the works of saints and the work of the Holy Spirit in the world. Have you ever heard of Common Grace? Were the children of Israel influenced by being members of Covenant families, by being members of a Covenant nation (Duet 29:10-13; Joel 2:16)? As Jesus said to Zacchaeus upon his conversion (Luke 19:9), "To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham." When Zacchaeus believed, his household was incorporated into the covenant. Do you think this was without influence? What do you do with I Corinthians 7:14?
While indeed being members of the covenant and later rejecting this does have eternal and deepening consequences (Heb 10:29-31), being members (non-elect) of the Covenant has temporary benefit. Consider Lot’s wife?
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Matthew 5:45 …. for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Do you think God is influenced to give the unregenerate earthly blessings by virtue of their hypocritical baptism, their false prayers, stopping of their ears to the preaching of the Word, and their false works? The Unregenerate should expect no earthly blessings from the Lord. They abide in eternal wrath and damnation.
Only when the Unregenerate despair of their work of baptism, the sinner's prayer, their ability to open their ears to preaching, and all of their works to fulfill your supposed covenant are they prepared to receive grace and earthly blessings from the Lord.
Do you think God is influenced to give the unregenerate earthly blessings by virtue of their hypocritical baptism, their false prayers, stopping of their ears to the preaching of the Word, and their false works? The Unregenerate should expect no earthly blessings from the Lord. They abide in eternal wrath and damnation.
Uhmm, who said the LORD was influenced by anyone’s works for salvation? However, since you believe in a horrible despot who denies His very nature and ONLY hates and despises everyone and ALWAYS, without exception, pours out hatred and despite toward an unelect creation He made and NEVER, without exception, pours out love, mercy, and grace, I can see why everyone is so excited about becoming a Lutheran. While the unregenerate don’t even seek God, God does indeed pour out Common Grace. Their very existence is a testimony to this. Of course, like other subjects this is one you have not studied yet and thus your comments.
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Only when the Unregenerate despair of their work of baptism, the sinner's prayer, their ability to open their ears to preaching, and all of their works to fulfill your supposed covenant are they prepared to receive grace and earthly blessings from the Lord.
Speartus, first it is not my covenant it is God’s that you are making a mockery of. Second, as already stated the Reformed view of the Covenant does not include works for salvation. Being a member of the Covenant does NOT mean one is saved, it merely means that one is in a certain relationship with God that has in it both cursing and blessings. Anyone, including Lutherans, who rest on Baptism, or any other work or device for salvation, save Christ alone, is NOT saved. You are STILL confusing membership in the covenant to be the same as salvation. This is not correct. How much of CT have you ever studied?
PS: the unregenerate DO NOT prepare to receive grace for salvation, that is Arminianism—again! The unregenerate are BORN AGAIN (regenerated by the Holy Spirit) and then they are prepared to DO the good works God prepared for them since the beginning of the world to DO!
Do you think God is influenced to give the unregenerate earthly blessings by virtue of their hypocritical baptism, their false prayers, stopping of their ears to the preaching of the Word, and their false works? The Unregenerate should expect no earthly blessings from the Lord. They abide in eternal wrath and damnation.
Uhmm, who said the LORD was influenced by anyone’s works for salvation? However, since you believe in a horrible despot who denies His very nature and ONLY hates and despises everyone and ALWAYS, without exception, pours out hatred and despite toward an unelect creation He made and NEVER, without exception, pours out love, mercy, and grace, I can see why everyone is so excited about becoming a Lutheran.
or a Calvinist?
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Sinners in the Hands of an Angry GodWere it not for the sovereign pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption, not willingly; the sun does not willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and Satan; the earth does not willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air does not willingly serve you for breath to maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God's enemies. . . The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.
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J_Edwards said: Speartus, first it is not my covenant it is God’s that you are making a mockery of. Second, as already stated the Reformed view of the Covenant does not include works for salvation. Being a member of the Covenant does NOT mean one is saved, it merely means that one is in a certain relationship with God that has in it both cursing and blessings. Anyone, including Lutherans, who rest on Baptism, or any other work or device for salvation, save Christ alone, is NOT saved. You are STILL confusing membership in the covenant to be the same as salvation. This is not correct. How much of CT have you ever studied?
Not much. Could you suggest some articles on this covenant you speak of? I do understand the difference between covenant and salvation. What I don't understand is how favor is obtained through a covenant when man sins in all his works.
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J_Edwards said: PS: the unregenerate DO NOT prepare to receive grace for salvation, that is Arminianism—again! The unregenerate are BORN AGAIN (regenerated by the Holy Spirit) and then they are prepared to DO the good works God prepared for them since the beginning of the world to DO!
Correct, the Unregenerate DO NOT prepare themselves in any way to receive grace. The Holy Spirit crushes the Unregenerate through the preaching of the law as they cry out in pure terror at the righteous judgment of the Lord! Then the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel regenerates them.
The works of the Regenerate are acceptable to God to the extent they are ruled, guided, and lead by the Holy Spirit. The works of the Unregenerate are not acceptable to God.
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