The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum I'm considering joining my church, but ...

Hi all,

(I preface this by saying that I could have misunderstood the contents of my conversation with my pastor due to language difficulties. I am planning on getting confirmation in writing soon).

As some of you may know, I've recently been considering becoming a member of my current church. I was talking with the pastor today, and he said that they want for all members to commit to not smoking and not drinking. I was a bit surprised and told him I didn't think I could make this committment, but I would think about it. If I understood correctly, this may also be a requirement for baptism.

He gave two reasons behind the requirement for this committment. One being that Japanese society has always had a big problem with alcoholism, even in the church (maybe smoking too?). The other being that when people see you not drinking it gives you a chance to give your testimony. I think his personal opinion is that drinking is not necessarily a sin but that smoking is always a sin.

I agree that Japan has a big problem with alcohol and some of the things I have seen here have really made me sad. But, does that make it proper for a church to ask members to refrain from drinking. I really am wary of committing to anything that binds my conscience and most likely will not. The second reason about being a good testimony doesn't seem like a good reason at all to me. I think when people abusing alcohol see Christians using alcohol in an appropriate manner can be just as good a testimony as Christians who do not drink.

Personally, I don't smoke but occcaisionally drink. I enjoy having a beer with a friend or with me dinner sometimes. In the past, there have a been times where I abused my priviledge to drink, and those times I definitely believe I sinned, but I repented. Even if I didn't drink (and I don't smoke), I don't think I could in good conscience make the committment they are asking since I think drinking and smoking (in a proper manner) falls under a matter of Christian liberty. I'm less sure about the issue of smoking since it's not addressed directly in the Bible, but I think it too probably falls in the same category. But, I do think the people who argue that all smoking is bad due to the health consequences/addictive nature and the fact that we are called to take care of our body have a strong argument. I still think there may be a permissible way to occaisionally smoke though, but it's something I have no desire to do.

Anyway, my pastor and I are going to discuss this issue more, but I wanted to see what others think about this. Right now if it does come down to an issue of having to commit to the rules or not become a member, then I think I will probably not become a member. Having my conscience bound like that would just be too big a thing for me. The reason for not drinking would only be to follow the rules and not because of my love of Christ. Should I be more willing to give up some of my Christian liberties for the sake of my fellow Christians?


John

John,

Let me relay something which I have personally gone through in a similar situation. We had once considered becoming members of a Free Presbyterian Church (Ireland) that has a congregation close to where we lived. When the time came, after attending there for about 8 months, we asked the pastor to come to the house for the purpose of discussing membership in that church. After he had arrived and we went through the normal "small talk", he presented us with a booklet, which set forth the denomination's requirements for membership. That booklet was entitled, Separated Unto the Gospel. It states very clearly that members are to vow to abstain from all alcohol, tobacco, dancing, card playing and any else deemed inappropriate by the Elders. To say the least, I was rather taken back and voiced my objections.

One of my objections was that these requirements were in opposition to the Westminster Confession of Faith, of which the church is allegedly committed. Specifically, I pointed out Chapter XX - "Of Christian Liberty, and Liberty of Conscience" which states:

I. The liberty which Christ hath purchased for believers under the gospel consists in their freedom from the guilt of sin, the condemning wrath of God, the curse of the moral law;[1] and, in their being delivered from this present evil world, bondage to Satan, and dominion of sin;[2] from the evil of afflictions, the sting of death, the victory of the grave, and everlasting damnation;[3] as also, in their free access to God,[4] and their yielding obedience unto him, not out of slavish fear, but a childlike love and willing mind.[5] All which were common also to believers under the law.[6] But, under the new testament, the liberty of Christians is further enlarged, in their freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law, to which the Jewish church was subjected;[7] and in greater boldness of access to the throne of grace,[8] and in fuller communications of the free Spirit of God, than believers under the law did ordinarily partake of.[9]

1. Titus 2:14; I Thess. 1:10; Gal. 3:13
2. Gal. 1:4; Col. 1:13; Acts 26:18; Rom. 6:14
3. Rom. 8:28; Psa. 119:71; II Cor. 4:15-18; I Cor. 15:54-57; Rom. 5:9; 8:1; I Thess. 1:10
4. Rom. 5:1-2
5. Rom. 8:14-15; Gal. 4:6; I John 4:18
6. Gal. 3:8-9, 14; Rom. 4:6-8; I Cor. 10:3-4; Heb. 11:1-40
7. Gal. 4:1-7; 5:1; Acts 15:10-11
8. Heb. 4:14-16; 10:19-22
9. John 7:38-39; Acts 2:17-18; II Cor. 3:8, 13, 17-18; Jer. 31:31-34

II. God alone is Lord of the conscience,[10] and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship.[11] So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience:[12] and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.[13]

10. James 4:12; Rom. 14:4, 10; I Cor. 10:29
11. Acts 4:19, 5:29; I Cor. 7:22-23; Matt. 15:1-6, 9; 23:8-10; II Cor. 1:24
12. Col. 2:20-23; Gal. 1:10; 2:4-5; 4:9-10; 5:1
13. Rom. 10:17; Isa. 8:20; Acts 17:11; John 4:22; Rev. 13:12, 16-17; Jer. 8:9; I Peter 3:15

In short, the framers of the WCF believed that the church has no authority to bind the consciences of men on matters of conscience, aka: Adiaphora (things indifferent). Since there is no prohibition against any of the items listed in their booklet in Scripture, they have no authority to demand of anyone to abstain from them nor to take an oath to do so, but especially to demand obedience to them as qualifications for membership in the Church of Jesus Christ. The pastor was unable to reconcile their requirements with the WCF, which I believe is true to Scripture on this matter.

The clincher came when he responded to a hypothetical situation I presented to him. I asked what the church would do if a long-standing member went out to dinner with his wife to celebrate their wedding anniversary and ordered a glass of wine to drink with their meal and they found out about it. Since the church believes that any consumption of alcohol was a sin, would they seek disciplinary measures against the man and his wife. His response was that if the man and/or wife didn't confess their sin and repent of it, then they would excommunicate him/them.

Biblical Christian Liberty allows a believer a free choice to either partake of everything not prohibited or to abstain from them for various reasons. It is a matter of conscience before the Lord and cannot be a matter of law. For an excellent article on this issue see here: The Weak and the Strong, by John Murray.

See also these articles:

Liberty of Conscience, by Donald MacLeod
Freedom in Christ, by G.I. Williamson
Christian Liberty, by A.W. Pink

In His grace,

Hi Pilgrim,

I will point out that, according to my pastor, the church does not believe drinking to necessarily be a sin (although it seems smoking is). So there is a difference between your situation and mine. But, I can actually understand (but disagree with their conclusion) a church who asks their members to abstain from those things because the church thinks they are a sin. In this case, the reasons are because of past problems with alcohol and the desire for members to have a good testimony. As I said in my first post, I can somewhat understand the first reason (although I think it's an over-reaction and has many problems), but the second reason is flawed on many, many levels in my opinion. Anyway, I'll have more clarification on these points in a few days from the pastor.

Thanks for pointing out the WCF section. I was actually reading it last night and wondering how relevant it was to my situation. I'll read the other articles you listed after work tonight.

John

Hi John,

I don't think I would make any vow to abstain from alcohol and tobacco in order to become a member of a local church. These things are adiaphora, and a Christian's conscience ought not to be bound in them except of his own volition and specifically to protect a weaker brother from stumbling, not in order to become a member of the church.

I'm looking to join a local PCA church here, and the vows for membership are as follows:

John,

The situation which I was in and yours may indeed be different to some degree, but I think they share a common and serious error, which is that they require man-made rules to be adhered to as qualifications for membership in the household of faith. The Scriptures know of no such requirements whatsoever. The items which CovenantInBlood listed do exist in Scripture and are therefore acceptable. By denying someone membership because they cannot in good conscience bind themselves to non-biblical rules/regulations, they are in essence saying that you do not belong to Christ, although they would doubtless deny any such thing. But in fact, it is true. By denying membership to someone, the church as holders of the "keys", are declaring that the person is not qualified/worthy to be deemed a child of God and thus the means of grace are not open to them (baptism and/or the Lord's Supper), they are prohibited from serving in any official office or capacity within the body of Christ and lastly, if found to violate any of these "rules", they would be subject to discipline. The only way anyone can be disciplined by the church is if the person is guilty of sin; doctrinal error or in life.

One of the other questions I posed to the pastor of that Presbyterian church was, If Christ was here on earth, would He turn away someone who occasionally drank a glass of wine, smoked a cigar, engaged in ballroom dancing with their spouse or played "Fish" with their children and/or require that they denounce such things before they could be united to Him? Of course, he was noticeably disturbed by my question, but it certainly made the point. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Dear John,

assuming you are of Caucasian descent it might be worth pointing out to your pastor that you have higher levels of alcohol dehydrogenase than your Japanese brethren. Consequently you are less affected by moderate intakes of alcohol. Hence the concern over drunkenness, which can happen to Japanese from a mere sniff of Scotch, is misplaced.

In Christ,

James.

Pilgrim,

I was only pointing out a small difference in our two situations , which are still very similar. I agree that both positions are seriously in error. Thanks for sharing you experiences with me. I wrote my pastor this evening to try to clear up exactly what the requirements are and make sure I didn't misunderstand anything. Hopefully, I'll have a response relatively quickly. If the requirements are what I understood them to be, then I'll most likely turn down membership. If that's the case, I'll have to really pray about what the next step should be.

By the way, the articles you linked too are really great (and encouraging since I've felt a little beaten down by this). The John Murray article is especially good.

John

Hi Kyle,

Those sound very similar to the same vows I made when I joined the PCA a few years ago. I recall having no reservations about making those vows.

John

I am Caucasian. Many Japanese people do have an inability to metabolize alcohol well and those that do can become quite affected by alcohol in only a few sips. However, while the percentage of Japanese with that problem is significant (I'm not sure exactly), it is still less than 50%. The other part of the population, which is easily the majority, seem to have the ability to drink nearly unimaginable quantities of alcohol (of course I'm exaggerating and generalizng a bit here, but ...). So I guess my point is that probably the pastor is aware that some people can drink quite a bit without being affected.

I doesn't seem to matter to him the amount that's involved. I say this because he says personally he doesn't think drinking is necessarily a sin for a Christian but that drunkenness is. I would conclude that if all drinking causes drunkenness then drinking would necessarily be a sin.

This issue doesn't seem to be just a church issue but a denominational issue. If I understood him correctly, this is the position of the Presbyterian Church of Japan. That's a little why I was so surprised because I don't usually associate Presbyterian churches with having alcohol/smoking requirements for membership.

John

John perhaps you should seek a purer manifestation of God's church here on earth.
Would you consider moving half way around the world to say Grand Rapids Michigan
there it seems to be the meca of sound reformed churches. Hey it's a bit of a leap
what do you say?

John,

This church sounds more like Alcoholics Anonymous rather than a Presbyterian church. However, at AA meetings there is generally quite a bit of smoking.

If you don't join this church what other options do you have?


Wes

Well, who knows what the future holds (except God). There's almost not a day that goes by that I don't think about returning to the U.S. Life would certainly be easier at home. But, I'm confident that God will always guide me to the place he wants me to be.

Michgan... Could a good ole Alabama boy like me handle those Northern winters?

John

Wes,

I know your comments are probably a mixture of joking and seriousness, and normally I could laugh along with you, but I guess this is one of those times where I just don't feel in a humorous mood. I have come to love this church dearly and to be confronted by this situation has been a difficult. I have always felt that the teaching (as best I could understand) at this church has been very faithful to Scripture. That's one of the reasons this situation has shocked me a bit. As much as I love this church, I just can't agree to their membership requirements as, in my mind, it's a very serious Biblical error. I've written to my pastor for clarification, and I'm really hoping that I misunderstood something in my converstation with my pastor last Sunday.

In the event that I understood correctly, I suppose I have several options none of which are that appealing to me. One is to continue to attend the church as a non-member. Two, the pastor mentioned something about a guest membership. Three, search for a new church.

To be honest, if I am to continue living in Japan for a long time, neither one or two seem proper to me. I really think that as a Christian I should join a a local expression of the body of Christ. If I am in such disagreement with the leadership of a church that I would be refused membership, it doesn't seem like a good situation to continue to attend for an extended period of time. The idea of a guest membership (whatever that is as I've never heard of it before) doesn't seem good to me either. Searching for a new church really seems to be the option that keeps popping in to my mind, but it's the one I least want to do as finding good churches in Japan is very difficult. Plus, being a foreigner here, I have felt that there is some suspicion (could be my imagination) by Japanese churches of foreign people when they first begin attending. It took me a long time to begin to feel comfortable at the church I'm at now and to get people to talk with me, and I don't relish (to be honest I somewhat dread it) going through that process again. It is probably the most likely option if what I thought I understood is actually correct. According to my pastor, the Reformed Church of Japan doesn't have the prohibition against drinking/smoking that the PCJ does, so I may look there. Anyway, I'm continue to pray about the situation and am confident that God will turn this situation for my good and his glory.

John

John,

I think you know I didn't mean to make light of your situation, yet I couldn't help but make the comparison to AA's standards for obvious reasons. Actually, what you are describing can be a serious problem in the church today. Not just in Japan but throughout the world. Whether you choose a denominational church, congregational church, or an independant one you will find these kinds of add ons to one degree or another. Whether it be smoking, drinking, hair length, clothing code, whatever..... it becomes legalism. The effort to add certain laws to curb excesses doesn't purify the church. No law can! Obedience to God's law and quiting bad habits is the result of being saved, not the cause of it.

Paul wrote in I Corinthians 6:12.....

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. .....do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."

I'm praying for you John. I sincerely hope further communication will reveal that you have misunderstood the pastor's position rather than having to look for other options.


Wes

Wes,

I knew you were not making light of my situation and was not bothered at all by your comments. It was just that at the time I didn't really know how to respond to the humour.

Thank you for your prayers. It means a lot to me. I'm still awaiting my pastor's response, so there's not to much else to say at the moment.

John