The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum I'm considering joining my church, but ...

Dear John,

Would it be helpful to suggest a mediating position to your pastor, such as agreeing not to drink in situations when other PCJ members are around or likely to be around? This is an offer not to offend the weaker brother on this issue rather than legalistically binding you unnecessarily to a course of conduct in all situations and at all times.

On a less serious note, I wonder why churches have restrictions like this but don't require members to promise not to watch 18 (R) films, watch TV after 10pm or misfile tax returns, or a whole host of other things. By all means, require Christians not to get drunk, but to prevent any drink seems to strain at a gnat whilst a herd of camels wanders past.

Bucolically yours,

James.

Hi James,

I got some answers from my pastor which I'll put in another post. Some of the answers to your questions are in there. I've never had a problem not drinking around other PCJ members and in fact have never done it and probably will never do it seeing as it's such a big issue there. The main exception to this being if I were to get married and my family were to be PCJ members. Even in that case, I can see myself freely refraining from using alcohol if I felt it caused my wife concern. Although I've never had a drink with other PCJ members, I've never hid the fact that I occaisionaly drink to people who have asked me and tried to honestly lay out my views on the use of alcohol. I have always been extremely careful about drinking around fellow Christians as I do not want to be the cause for them sinning. On the other hand, for the few Christian friends I have whose views are similar to my on and who I know are not going against their conscience to drink and who I know will not abuse the priviledge, I have no qualms with having a beer with.

I guess we could make membership vows very easy if we just include the promise "not to sin" in them. I agree that singling out certain areas for the potential of sin over others is a bit overboard.

John

I apologize in advance for the long post.

Here is the reply I got from my pastor last night asking for clarification. Some concerns were alleviated, some concerns remain, and other concerns were raised. I will do my best to translate his reply as accurately as I can, but even then, the nature of the subject and my insufficient grasp on Japanese could mean I make some mistakes.

================ Church Views =====================
1. Drinking is not necessarily a sin. Smoking is/isn't (I couldn't understand).

2. A committment to not smoke or drink is not required to join the church, but it is strongly encouraged.

3. The reason for strongly encouraging one not to drink is because it is easy to fall into sin and as a witness to other believers/non-believers. Furthermore, our bodies are temples of Christ and we are called to live holy lives. Also, there is a huge alchol problem that is part of Japanese culture.

Smoking is a deadly poison to the body. Furthermore, it affects those around us. I'm still not sure if the position is that smoking is necessarily a sin or not.

4. In answer to my question "To become a member what is the requirement/committment?", the pastor listed the following commitments that are requested. Some of the things listed aren't really committments but encouragements, so I don't know what to make of them. I still can't decide whether these are actually the official vows one is required to make to join the church. I will translate literally.

a. Please make a proactive effort to participate in church service(s?) and meetings.
b. Please endeavor to tithe 10 percent.
c. Please endeavor to live a pure Christian lifestyle.
e. Pleae participate in service (I assume this is acts of service not the morning/evening church service)
e. Please avoid idolatry.
f. Please construct a Christian home (marry a fellow Christian)
g. Please abide by the church rules.
h. Please participate as a member of the believer's general meeting (not sure, but I think this is a meeting of the various JPC churches, might be similar to a session meeting?).

In addition, a credible profession of faith is required.

In answer to the question "what are the reasons behind the
requirements", the answer is "As Christians, we should want to live that kind of life as a testimony".

He does state that some of the above committments are based on an individuals specific case. For example, health problems could prevent people from attending the service regularly or financial problems could prevent someone from tithing 10 percent. In those cases, one should consult with the church leadership for advise.
==========End Church Position=====================

Although I am glad that there is no requirement for drinking/smoking to join the church, I still find the reasoning for highly encouraging members not to drink (and smoke although I have more conflicting opinions here) to be suspect. Why should the testimony of a Christian who uses alcohol in an appropriate manner and with hanksgiving be any less glorifying to God and/or effective in witnessing than that of a Christian who abstains? I think there are probably some other possible errors in this line of reasoning too. And, even though, the pastor says drinking is not necessarily a sin, the passion that he argues for abstaining make me feel a bit uncomfortable. Furthermore, I worry that if I do join then my views would sometime put me into conflict with members (and it is not my desire to cause conflict).

Also, some of the requirements still seem quite legalistic to me. When I joined the PCA, the vows were along the lines of (taken from a previous post in this thread)

1. Do you acknowelge yourself to be a sinner in the sight of God, justly deserving His displeasure, and without hope save in His sovereign mercy?
2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered in the Gospel?
3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes the followers of Christ?
4. Do you promise to support the Church in its worship and work to the best of your ability?
5. Do you submit yourselves o the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?

I don't recall having any problems with making these vows.

5 seems similar to g. 3 seems similar to c. I guess 1 and 2 are in the credible confession of faith. 4 is similar to d. Although they are similar, I do worry that there will be more "legalism" attached to than
in my previous church. Especially as Japanese culture tends to encourage "group" think.

I don't know if I agree with a, b, f, and h. I'm not saying that these aren't good things in and of themselves, but I just feel like to commit to them in a formal manner is more than is required from Scripture. Hence, I worry that if I were to commit to them, then the binding nature
of the vow would become a chain around my neck that would turn the joy I have from freely doing those things (in reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit) into a a grudgingly done act (which would be a sin). Actually, as for f, I believe that Christians should marry other Christians, but my worry is that the church will put pressure on members to get married in general. Regardless, I don't think it should be in the membership committments.

I found a position paper by the PCA on alcohol here,
http://www.pcanet.org/history/findingaids/rpces/docsynod/019.html

The PCA's official position on alcohol (according to the report, at the bottom, Resolutions on the use of alcohol) seems somewhat more strict than I ever remember being discussed at my PCA church. The PCA position (unless
it has changed) also advocated total abstinence (although not in a binding way).

Well, I'm still praying about the appropriate course of action. Some of my fears were relieved, but I still see some of the committments as being more than required by Scripture. I do know that there is no perfect church and that every church struggles with myriads of problems. I will probably pass on joining during the fall session, however, as I would need to give an answer in just a few weeks. I think it will take me more than a few weeks to make a decision.

Any comments?

John

Sorry, the link I gave as the PCA position on alcohol is actually a RPC position at the PCA history website. A PCA position is at

http://www.pcanet.org/history/pca/2-051.html

I'm not sure the relation between the PCA and RPC.

John

John,

From the pastors statement above I can understand why the church wants to draw the line at the point of abstinence. However, I wonder how the members are complying with this and how they deal with those who fail.

It's always better to build a strong fence at the top of the hill rather than a hospital at the bottom but the church is not a private club for the righteous but a sanctuary for forgiven sinners. I'd recommend discussing this issue with one or more of the elders to further understand the church's position and how they practically deal with this. It would seem to me if there is a huge alcohol problem in this part of Japan they have had to deal with this issue. What kind of support do they offer to those members who struggle with this problem? How do they minister to those members who fall?

Have they set the bar so high that no one can reach it?


Wes

John,

If you do decide to join as a member (assuming these vows are not required of you), I think it would be appropriate to make clear (as you are able) your problems with these "encouragements" to the elders.

I had an encouraging discussion with my pastor yesterday after the church service. It seems there has been a lot of miscommunication due to language issues. The actual required vows to join the church are very similar to the ones Kyle posted from the PCA. I will have no worries about taking those vows. The other "requirements" are really requirements but are the churches desires for their members, but there are no required promises. Actually, a lot of my confusion has been due to the Japanese word for promise having slightly different connotations then the English word for promise. When speaking of a binding promise, there is a different Japanese word altogether (which is used in the case of the actual membership vows). The regular Japanese word for promise (at least in this situation as explained by my pastor) has more of the idea of make an effort to but if you can't, that's ok. Since many of the requirements are things that I think were good things, but things that I would have deep reservations about making a promise (in the English sense) to do, I'm relieved to know that that is not the case.

I want to thank everyone for their encouragement and advice the last week. I apologize for taking up everyone times over an issue that doesn't seem to have been an issue at all. I also feel a bit bad to have possibly painted my church and PCJ in a poor light when it wasn't warranted, so I hope that everyone reading through this thread makes it to this post.

I'm very thankful right now that everything seems to be working out in a good way. I've decided to wait until the spring to join the church, however, so I can have more time to discuss the issue with the church leadership and resolve things that are due to language problems.

John

John,

You don't need to apologize for taking up our time. This is a very important thing in your life. I'm grateful that it appears to be working out. That's an answer to prayer.

I'm impressed how seriously you take making a promise. That's a good quality! Your continued pursuit for answers has been fruitful.


Wes

John,

Please do keep us updated. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Kyle,

I'll let you know of any new developments.

John

Wes,

Part of the reason I'm being more cautious about this situation is language problems. After two years in Japan, I've learned to always suspect that whatever I though I understood is probably wrong. It can be very frustrating at times.

Another reason is that I've been in fairly legalistic churches before, and I really don't want to go back to that kind of situation. Although some of the things a legalistic church may require are good in their own right, when you bind your conscience to do them they can become a snare to you. Soon, you can find yourself grudgingly following the "rule" solely because of the vow and not freely because of your love for Christ (or his love for you). I know that, most likely, if I were to make the vow to do some of those things, I would in the end wind up doing them with a bitter heart. Also, I am well aware of the huge amount of sinful desires remaining in my own heart, so I really am cautious about making any vow that in my heart I know I will break.

John

Hi Kyle,

Well, there wasn't much development on this front for several months, but I've been discussing church membership with my pastor again the past month in anticipiation of joining the church in the spring (the church has a number of set times of the year when new members can join). Unfortunately, I don't know whether or not I will be able to join or not. This week the pastor asked me to postpone my joining to give him more time to consider my response to the church's requests for members. I would say there is a 50% chance I will not be allowed to join. At the same time, after our recent discussions, I'm praying about whether or not I should withdraw my request for membership. It's been a very discouraging recently.

The points of contention are not the formal membership vows themselves, which I can make without reservation, but once again center around the additional "requests" for members. Even though they aren't required and I was told it was ok for those who couldn't make them, it seems that that's not really the case.

The main additional requests are

a. Please make a proactive effort to participate in church service(s?) and meetings.
b. Please endeavor to tithe 10 percent.
c. Please endeavor to live a pure Christian lifestyle.
e. Pleae participate in service (I assume this is acts of service not the morning/evening church service)
e. Please avoid idolatry.
f. Please construct a Christian home (marry a fellow Christian if you get married)
g. Please abide by the church rules.
h. Please participate as a member of the believer's general meeting (I think this has something to do with voting about some issues that may arise).
i. Please do not drink/smoke (since we should strive for a pure life, have a good testimony for others, and be considerate of weaker brothers/sisters).

The main points I could not agree to were (b) tithing and (i) drinking/smoking. I said I could conditionally agree to (g) provided the rules were Biblical since (g) by istelf is extremely vague. I was surpised to see (e) at first, although it is entirely appropriate, but actually since Japan is mostly Buddhist/Shinto this can be a big problem here.

My response concerning drinking/smoking was that I would promise to always strive to use these things appropriately and Biblically and when in situations where a weaker brother could be affected, to refrain. To be honest, I think the two reasons for not drinking/smoking - for living a pure life and having a good testimony - are very flawed as it carries the implication that if one does drink/smoke (in an appropriate manner) then your life is not as pure as one who doesn't and your testimony is not as good as one who doesn't. Actually I don't smoke and have no intention of ever starting, but I think to promise not to would indicate that I believe that "Good Christians don't smoke", so I could not promise even in the case of smoking.

As for tithing, I said I did not believe that tithing was still binding under the new covenant, but that I could promise to always strive to give generously and at those times when I wasn't to pray that God would give me a more generous heart.

To be honest, after the recent discussions, I'm now having 2nd thoughts about a couple of the others. There seems to be so much emphasis on them, that I'm afraid that what once were things I was doing freely and joyfully could become things done grudgingly. Of course, I always pray and hope that God would give me heart to joyfully attend church each week and heart to joyfully serve the church and a heart to give generously, etc.

Anyway, I'm praying about this issue. I realize that part of the problem is that my heart is hard. Joining a church does require coming under the authority of the church leadership and as Christian's we should humble ourselves and submit to those God has placed in authority above us. But, at the same time, there are some areas that as Christians we should keep ourselves free of rules where the Bible does not bind us. The question is always which are those areas. When applied to the some of the requests from my church, I've gone back and forth about whether those are areas I should submit to the request or keep myself free of the rule.

Well, that about wraps up the recent news on the search for church membership.

John

Hey John,

Thanks for the update on your church situation. I think you've done rightly so far and would like to see what the pastor thinks of your response to the "requests" for members after he has had more time to reflect. It is good to be a member of a local church, but if the local church is really attempting to bind members with unbiblical regulations, it may be better not to be a member. Your concerns are legitimate and I hope the elders see that.