The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Gospel truth

beloved57 said:
Very Ironic , how you refer to passages that illustrate the very gospel you appear to despise. ...

Adopted said:
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />

this is the first time you have admitted that limited atonement is part of the gospel.

... the content of the Gospel message. It's also (besides TULIP and the Solas) about ...

Paul_S said:
beloved57,

In your response to my single post, you completely missed my point--that a handful of words from any holy text, divorced from their immediate context, can be framed to support any doctrine, whether false (e.g. universalism) or true (e.g. particular/limited atonement)--and proceeded to instruct me as though I needed to be delivered from the evils of universalism. Well, you are at least 25 years too late for that exhortation.

My point is that Limited atonement is taught in 1cor 15:1-4 as the content of the gospel paul preached, yes that is the context of him speaking on the resurrection, byt nevertheless, it is more than implied, it is declared !

You have been repeatedly rebuked not for holding true a precious element of doctrine--your allegations to the contrary, I don't think anyone who has attempted to reason with you in this thread holds limited atonement as any less true or essential than you do--but rather for mishandling of the word of God.

How have I mishandled the word of God, if you are truthful, you know I have been very scriptural !

All truth is of God, and because God is one, all true propositional expressions are invariably rooted in his being and nature and mighty deeds and revelation. So my statement "we felt we had to put our dog to sleep last winter" conveys more than a mere historical fact; it is rooted in, and can therefore be said to imply, several foundational truths: God is; God is Creator of people, animals and time; people make decisions because they are made in the image of God; the consequences of rebellion against God reach to the non-human physical world; etc. Similarly, any biblical statement concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ is ultimately rooted in the entire counsel of God in which that gospel is revealed, and therefore, as one example, the doctrine of limited atonement is indeed implied whenever the gospel is preached.

I agree with you on that !

However, humanity being both finite and fallen, the Holy Spirit-inspired pattern of evangelistic preaching to the lost constantly returns, as you well know, to a handful of explicit proclamations of the person and work of "Jehovah-saves!", the anointed God-man, the Lord Christ. These proclamations are exquisitely wrought and wielded by the Holy Spirit to irresistibly translate lost sinners from death to life, from darkness to light, by giving them faith to believe the promise, not of particular election--how could God promise them what he had decreed before creation?--but the promise of salvation from their sins against his threefold holiness, which faith rests entirely in the life, death, resurrection, reign and return of--and thus glorifying alone--the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Gods promise to the elect , was in Christ their federal Head
as gal 3:16 brings out Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

also titus 1: 2,3
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

paul here in titus, clearly tells titus that he proclaimed this great truth of Gods eternal love and covenant love for his elect, which he promised them and them only eternal life, promised in christ. Do you think this was the first time titus heard this? No, he evidently heard it in the gospel that paul preached to him before ?


Your insistence upon elevating the true doctrine of particular redemption--essential to the comfort and assurance of the believer--to an essential facet of evangelistic preaching is a mishandling of the Word of God:
the doctrine is not constantly, explicitly present in Sciptural evangelism, and by making it so you inevitably exclude other, more prominent and necessary, facets of gospel doctrine, in effect taking away from the Word of God, against which you have been warned. And your insistence upon defending its elevation by exegeting the Scriptures as though what were implicit is actually explicit leaves you open to the charge of allegorization, which gives encouragement to those determined to read false doctrine into passages (viz. the point of my original post).

you continue to accuse me of allogorizing, please prove that sir, so I and others can see specifically where I do this ! As far as elevating limited atonement, well, thats just part of the message of christ crucified, it describes who he was crucified for, I will continue to elevate it, as I elevate Christ.

Grievously, I have discerned in your writings in this thread very little desire for instruction, for fellowship with co-laborers, for an extension of charity to those you may not understand, for a public display of unity in the church, for humble praise of the glorious grace of God revealed in Jesus Christ. I have lived long enough to see men, to their peril, infatuated by a single doctrine to the exclusion of others; heed the warnings you have received!

You charge me falsely again, I desire fellowship where fellowship can be had, I even believe that I can be taught some things here, even though, I also believe I can contribute as well. Maybe I miss the purpose of the forum, is it for me to be instructed exclusively ?

I see that by now you have been rebuked by Pilgrim for your dishonoring treatment of one of the brothers. Here is another false accusation made by yourself. You told Adopted,


In truth, he stated explicitly, a day earlier:


It would be most wise to search your posts for these, and more, unfounded public accusations and publicly make them right.

Kathy said:
I am enclosing a link that articulates what I would never be able to... (I have a feeling most of you will be against it) concerning Predestination and what seems to me... becomes unfruitful to overemphasize. Maybe that is the point... When things become overemphasized... Flat outright -- I do not claim to know your individual understandings concerning.... growing

Pilgrim said:
beloved57,

Here it is in a nutshell . . . Is the doctrine of a "Definite Atonement" a scriptural truth? Absolutely! Should this doctrine be taught and preached in the churches? Absolutely! <span style="background-color:#FF0000">This is were we disagree ! The truth of the gospel as to who christ died for , the sheep, the elect, the church, the chosen ones. It is a vital part of the gospel, perhaps even the stumblingblock!</span>. The Gospel which is to be proclaimed universally concerns itself with the efficacy and sufficiency of the atonement and not its extent, i.e., Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. And through faith in HIM sinners are reconciled to God through His death and resurrection. True, who he is and what he has done . Matt 1:21 ( he shall save his people from their sins) before Whom men must bow as Lord, receive as Saviour, and trust for life itself. In Him is found the remission of sins and eternal life.

"Assensus", the believing of truth, has never saved anyone. Robert Sandeman thought otherwise and believed that all one needed to do to be saved was to believe some basic facts, or truths. He thus removed the essential element of "Fiducia", i.e., the necessity of a prior work of regeneration which recreates the soul, imparting a new nature which creates a genuine desire within a person to loathe sin and to love God and thus to involve one's entire being in the embracing of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is during or after one is converted that the truth concerning the extent of the atonement is realized as can be seen in Paul's own testimony:

Now the issue is not believing the truth as an act we do to be saved, that is works, lets not confuse the issue. The point here is that, those who are saved will believe the gospel and that entails limited atonement 1cor 15:1-4 christ died for our (the brethern, elect,the chosen, the seed of abraham, the sheep, the children of God ) sins ! every word of God is inspired and has a purpose ! Pilgrim to say that limited atonement is not part of the gospel truth, is not good, you say its not, and the scripture says it is! Who should I believe?

<blockquote>
Galatians 2:20 (ASV) "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, <span style="background-color:yellow">[/b]who loved me, and gave himself up for me[/b]</span>."<br>
</blockquote>

Thats paul own private testimony, he is not preaching the gospel !









[color:"FF0000"]This is a contradiction, it should not be excluded, because it is an essential truth, it describes for whom christ died![/color] If the subject happens to come up in conversation then it is perfectly legitimate to discuss it. But again, the emphasis which should most concern us in presenting the Gospel and that which is of necessity to the unbelieving world is that the death and resurrection of Christ has made atonement for sin to all who believe.( every, roman catholic and arminian, seven day adventis, would agree with this !

In His grace,

beloved57 said:

This is were we disagree ! The truth of the gospel as to who christ died for , the sheep, the elect, the church, the chosen ones. It is a vital part of the gospel, perhaps even the stumblingblock!

..... it should not be excluded, because it is an essential truth, it describes for whom christ died!

beloved57 said:
The point here is that, those who are saved will believe the gospel and that entails limited atonement 1cor 15:1-4 christ died for our (the brethern, elect,the chosen, the seed of abraham, the sheep, the children of God ) sins ! every word of God is inspired and has a purpose ! Pilgrim to say that limited atonement is not part of the gospel truth, is not good, you say its not, and the scripture says it is! Who should I believe?

Then you wrote:
Thats paul own private testimony, he is not preaching the gospel !

In regard to Definite Atonement, you quipped:
This is a contradiction, it should not be excluded, because it is an essential truth, it describes for whom christ died! . . . every, roman catholic and arminian, seven day adventis, would agree with this !