The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Fall or Expulsion ?

In 1975, I wrote Biology for Grade 11 (back then it was called Standard 9) Now I am essentially a left brain type; excelling in Art and Atheletics, so regardless of how hard I tried to stuff information into my brain, it would fall out again and inevitably I would have to resort to some sort of dishonest and shameful action to ensure my pass on the complex subjects.

I passed Biblical Studies at Grade 12 level, simply because I employed my art in converting all the complex information into pictures. This process I used in my repeat year in Grade 6. It worked so well that by the time I was in Grade 7, I managed to come third in my class. (It was one of the big three academic colleges in the Western Province : SACS, Rondebosh and Bishops) However, I really excelled on the rugby playing field eventually playing under 16A. (In my little world back then, that was regarded a pretty big achievement.)

Now to the matter of my Grade 11 exam in Biology. The exam is set and so are all exams, so if one could get a copy of the paper in advance one could pass with high marks. I was not that ingenious and resorted to desperate measures...no I did not write it on my shirt sleeve inner, or my arms or hand or ruler, all pretty good systems if you are not endowed with the skills to excell. I just popped my Biology book in my desk and peeped in when I need to find and answer. My actions were brazen disregard and disrespect for my sweet teacher. She eventually caught me at it and I was told to hand in my paper and proceed to the headmasters office.

I sluggishly made my way out of the classroom and proceeded up the wide hall to the headmasters office, dreading the shouts and punishment that would ensue. To my horror, I was no more than two minutes out into the hall that I spied the Headmaster coming straight at me. It was exam time and no one was to wonder about.

He swiftly questioned me as to my reason for being out of class and when I told in a very disrespectful tone, I had been cribbing in Miss ________ class, my tiny headmaster reached forward and grabbed my shirt and shook me so hard that my buttons fell off. All he said was, "Go home and do not return." I had been expelled.

I went back to the classroom, colleted my books and looked at the teacher and said, "It's all your fault." Of course it was all my fault, but I was a childish teenager and I was in hot water; with the head of the orphanage and the ultimately my earthly father. (I was still in Adam)

To finish the story part; I went back to the orphanage and was severely reprimanded. My father was called in and deep intense discussion were had and it was decided that in order to make 'Johnny B Goode' I would be sent to the military to learn discipline, with the end that I would become a law abiding citizen. Well, it did not work, the laws that govern military life are even more intense and it was not long before I would be expelled from the Navy. (thankfully in Christ)

Often I read the phrase in theological papers, 'the fall of Adam' and one might get a sense that my story is the 'the fall of Straw' BUT, it is my puzzle and sadly it will not puzzle y'all; did Straw fall or was He expelled for failing to comply with the rules...in School and in the Navy. (the Navy details are mentioned in my book 'Abraxas to Jesus') However, seeing as this is a Theology Discussion Forum; it would be probably better to ask:

Did Adam fall, hence 'The Fall of Adam' or was Adam expelled, hence 'The Expulsion of Adam' ?

That is the question. Now just some of my own thoughts on this from a theological point of view. Adam and Eve (Adam) were in this garden (be it actual physical or symbolic metaphorical) and were given 'ONE' rule not to disobey. 'Do not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden' as well as being told that if they did do this, they would, 'surely die' No doubt about what was said. Enter the dragon, I mean the serpent, and a subtle, crafty one who employed very powerful devices to lure Eve into a place where she would consciously disregard the prior warning of God regarding this dangerous tree. By the time the serpent was finished weaving his tale in her mind, she no longer saw that tree as dangerous, but instead it looked GREAT, and TASTY, and instead of being dangerous, it was going to give her something she imagined she needed WISDOM, the sort that would make her on the same level as GOD. (Knowing good and evil) She fell for it, the lie.

Now we know that nothing happens without God knowing, sort of like the head-honcho in the Matrix. Somebody knows everything at all times and in this life, the knower of all things is GOD. GOD knew about the serpents plan, and based on what we know about Satan's need to have permission to do his nasty deeds, they are all verified and authenticated by GOD. Hence, we may conclude that the event that happened in the Garden of Eden (whether actual or symbolic metaphorical) was something which GOD had already in mind when He created Eve, and Adam.

Adam's role in this is not really active. He only arrives on the scene after the deed has been done and Eve will now surely die. Eve now deceived begins to weave her web, the same web that the serpent wove around her mind, around her man's mind and though some tell that Adam consciously decided to join Eve in her sin in a sacrificial way, type of Christ, it is more apparent that Adam enters into her fall deceived as much by the serpent influence as she is. Hence, they are both in it together.

Now in what follows they have failed, but what is to come is expulsion. GOD eventually finds them hiding in the garden all covered up to avoid the shame of their disobedience and frightened of GOD, the fear of death has probably settled on them. No? Well, they are certainly cowering and afraid, probably trembling. No? Okay, they are hiding away from the one who had created them. Right!

He then cross questions them and not as if he does not know, but they clearly are not willing to accept blame for their actions and the one blames the other in a classic Hitchcock tradition, until eventually GOD pronounces curses over the woman, the man and the serpent, with a promise hidden in there of something to come. (I am pretty sure they did not understand what Jesus was talking about, did I say Jesus. Okay, what God was talking about. They did however realize that at some point a seed would come from the woman's side which would crush the head of the serpent.) Whether they remembered or forgot this we are not told. Then GOD expells then from the garden and places security gaurds at the entrance so that they cannot return. Notice they are expelled through the entrance, so there certainly must have been traffic to and fro. (okay a bit off the point)

Now it is my conclusion that the phrase used by man to describe what happened to Adam is incorrect; namely 'the fall of Adam' I think it might have been less confusion to call it the 'Expulsion of Adam and Eve' or perhaps better said, 'The Expulsion of the Adamic Race' for after this the entire race was doomed to death, though we notice certain escaped this (Enoch, Elijah and others...they walked with God). < but this is not really what my question is about....

What I want to know from ye academically minded studs, is whether or not it is wrong to say, "THE FALL OF ADAM" or not ? - and of course. Why ?

(I am already reading A PURITAN CATECHISM by Spurgeon, hoping to find some answers before ye all write back on this one.)

Love,

Adam and Eve fell, and then were expelled from access to the Tree of Life as a result of the fall.

The fall means that their entire nature was corrupted and they became dead in sin (Genesis 2:17, Eph 2:1). Even their minds and hearts (and all of Adam's heirs) became corrupted (Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 3:10-18, Titus 1:15). Thus humanity was disabled and rendered rancid (Romans 7:18 and 8:7).

Thank God, He had already planned our redemption in Christ!

-Robin

Robin,

If this was true then how come there was still conference between killers like Cain ? Do you suppose that it was not entire corruption, but they still retained some ability for concourse with God as Creator ? I mean surely sin did do damage, but everyone knows that sins damage is degeneratively progressive and eventually one might has a hardened heart or a seared conscience and thereby be unable to interact with God ? I think the idea of absolutes though defending a doctrinal position, destroys exegesis of Genesis in as much as the true consideration of the nature of man. To say as you have that the entire nature of man was corrupted only half expresses the true state of man. Perhaps a softer line might not be injurious to your Bible thumping routine.

Thank God that He revealed His redemption to the prophets and Kings and priests, who wrote it down. Howbeit, not without difficulty of comprehension on the part of those who would come to the Scriptures later depending on doctrinal ideas of others to force a particular perspective.

I think perhaps you might benefit from a closer study of the Scriptures and a less biased and dogmatic view. Then knowing you, you will probably tongue lash me for suggesting such a thought. I am just trying to get you to think about the possibility that your idea is good but not entirely accurate.

Sincerely,

Straw,

Now what is this new "wrinkle" you have tossed out above? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> You don't like "absolutes"? And, you don't believe the biblical teaching concerning the consequences of the Fall which have been classically known, taught and believed, i.e., "Total Depravity"? Either the consequences of the Fall left man totally alienated from God, under God's wrath and condemnation, without any righteousness whatsoever and a corrupt nature which is at enmity with God and all that is good with no desire nor ability to change or man possesses some good and/or the ability to commune with God? Which is it?

See the following for a description and defense of the historic doctrine of the Church:

- Presbyterian Doctrine of Total Depravity, by Thomas M. Gregory
- Total Depravity, by Lorraine Boettner
- Total Depravity, by Gordon Girod
- Adam's Fall and Mine, by R.C. Sproul
- The Sinfulness of Man's Natural State, by Thomas Boston

In His grace,

.

To say that the entire nature of man was corrupted only half expresses the true state of man AND the other half is that man outside of Christ is spiritually [color:"FF0000"]DEAD[/color].


But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14


And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely [color:"FF0000"]die.[/color] Genesis 2:16,17


And you hath he quickened, who were [color:"FF0000"]dead[/color] in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:1


Even when we were [color:"FF0000"]dead[/color] in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Ephesians 2:5


Banishment from God is death.

.

Dear Pilgrim,

Now where are we going with this thread ? I do have a problem with total depravity, I think it might be better explained as partial depravity. Well, that is how I honestly think since reading Genesis and Romans 1. There is just too much in the historical progressive revelation that shows man sinking down into sinfulness, incurring God's hot displeasure and being drowned. Societies are often born out of great light, and then as they forget about their maker, and abolish prayer and the Bible, gradually things start to come apart. I do think this is a mirror of what each induvidual is like, we start with 'the knowledge of good and evil' and though in early childhood we might even have close encounters the slide into the pit is gradual, like the old froggy. Until like in the last part of Romans one all hell breaks loose and societies crumble to dust, as do induviduals. Sin is the sting of death, and this searing process is gradual in the heart of man, some not so, but eventually the hardening of heart, brings the hardening of the Spirit of God, and that person dies like Pharoah and like Herod.

It is half past midnight and look my pretty carriage wheels have turned into pumpkins. Let me away before the night disappears and the dawn steals my needed sleep. I am a one man army of service at the moment and the little sleep I do get is essential.

His peace gaurd you heart,

William,

I am a little to tired to respond to the passages you have chosen. They are good one's but one needs to be careful not to mix deaths. In Genesis the death that they tasted was physical death not spiritual.

Certainly they were expelled, banished. However, God is not banished from anywhere, and like the headmaster could easily come to my orphanage and talk to me. God certainly does talk to Cain, and many throughout History and some most unsavoury characters.

He talks to the little ones, of which we all were. In dreams in daydreams by angelic visitation and the like. Before the dye as it were is cast we do have knowledge of good and evil, but it cannot save us, only convict us when we do wrong. (Gentile bummer). The Jews had tons of revelations from God, and yes their faithlessness and impenitence certainly added up a whole lot of anger from God, and not just them but all men as the slide toward the flood, and the slide toward what is coming. (Peter saw the coming of annihilation by fire. The gradual slide into oblivion, ... I am repeating my answer to Pilgrim. (read there).

I agree that we were dead, but were we existed did we not, and even though we were professional sinners, we were convicted of our unbelief in the Son of God, of our lack of right standing, and of the fact that if we continued unrepentant, we would end up in the lake of fire. We need to exist to be sinners. To make us void of all, totally inabled is to deprive us of the neccessary stuff to enable us to even know what needs to be known to be accussed to be judged by GOD.

I am probably no longer making much sense, but seriously I have had this discussion before and there is no description in Genesis of the actual state of Adam and Eve after Eden, if anything up till the time they are expelled they are talking to God, seeing God ? There is no reason for this to not have continued, and certainly from the accounts we have God is very present tense even with baddies like Cain, we it is said, 'went out from the presense of the Lord.'

Enough,

Straw,

Well, what can I say other than the view which you have expressed is solidly semi-Pelagian. The Church has categorically deemed this view as heresy and rejected it from its early attempts to infiltrate the Church. The several articles which I provided the links to are sufficient in themselves to set forth the biblical teaching concerning the Fall and its consequences. There is a plethora of biblical references and quotes in each one of them. So, once again, I commend them to you and encourage you to seriously consider them for both your enlightenment and your soul.

And to show you how far back this controversy has been going on, consider that in 529 A.D., the Church wrote, adopted and published its official stand on this matter in the now well-known document called, The Council of Orange.

In His grace,

The above statement that I posted is incorrect.

Banishment results in a misery over sin. A misery which only the elect experience having broken the law of God.

In Genesis four God is establishing His covenant of grace which is governed by His election and which reprobation serves. Also I do not believe “the presence of the Lord” in chapter four shows a fellowship with God and Cain that only the elect experience.


William

I guess you believe that unsaved man is "sick in trespasses and sins", not as Eph. 2:1 says "dead in trespasses and sins."

Tom

Dear William,

The book of Genesis records that Abel was killed by his brother Cain. The blood covenant is contrasted with this first shed blood. Cain is certainly in dialogue with God in Genesis, that is if one maintians a (literal, not metaphysical symbolic approach to Genesis.)

Fellowship is a big word and I agree Cain was certainly in hot water with God after murdering his brother. It was the first recorded murder (that is if you are not over spiritualizing the text). Adam and Eve did not die spiritually (whatever that means). Certainly one might draw inferences to a lack of intimacy with God, but it is certain that the main character of the Bible is continually in dialogue with the banished one's. Some got unbanished and were allowed to leave this earth before death. (Enoch, Elijah and others ???) <speculative.

The idea of koinonia, or intimacy that was shared in the Garden is a closed book (metaphorically speaking), but God is not walking around in the cool of the day with no one to talk to. He clearly comes out of the Garden and talks and walks down through the pages of history, and is still doing so today, for if it were not so then Immanuel would not have any offspring. (okay, I am going a little bit to flowery now. Time to stop.)

If you read slowly through the Old Testament you will find that there are some who walked with God and others who did not, however, it is not uncommon for God to talk to publicans and sinners, and certainly the New Testament reveals GOD incarnate doing just that. This thread seems to be bouncing into other thread ideas at the moment, so I am going to give it a rest, lest they all cover exactly the same thought.

Banishment of the Adamic race in Adam is pretty conclusive for me. The ideas that Adam fell, is still not something that I think adequately expresses what happened to Adam when they passed the Cherubim gaurds and the flaming sword that went every way, and were locked out of the intimate cool of the day etc. etc. The new location was filled with all the curses of God's upon the serpent, the man and the woman. The race of Adam was doomed to die out, eventually. I however still read of a God that has far from lost interest in them, and reciprocation both vocally and emotionally. I am not too convinced about the idea that these were dead. Paul calls Adam, 'a living soul' ... intersting that this race are characterized by being soulishly alive, not dead. Unless we are just holding to a creed and not willing to explore this with honesty.

I think I hear God calling, "Adam and Eve, where are you?" It is true that we hide, but not God. He cannot hide and therefore we are never truly hidden.

Straw,

Would you say then that verbal communication between God and a person means that God is fellowshipping with that person on intimate terms?

Funny thing is that even when I went to Arminian Churches, they taught about the "fall of Adam". Yes they were inconsistent in the fact that they taught that the fall caused man to be sick in trespasses and sins, not dead in trespasses and sins. But never the less they still taught the fall of Adam.
This makes me wonder where you might be getting your teaching. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Tom

"And you hath He quickened, who were sick in tresspasses and sins... (Eph 2:1e)"

"And God saw that the wickedness of Man was great in all the earth, and that some imagination of the thoughts of his heart were kinda sorta less than wholesome most of the time (Genesis 6:5o)."

"The heart is sometimes less than honest above all things, and desperately depressed. Who can know it (Jeremiah 17:9o)."

"As it is written, 'There must be some righteous, yes, very many. There are some who understand, some that seek after God. Perhaps most haven't gone astray but may still be profitable. There must be some that do good, yes, many (Romans 3:10-12o)."

"As by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so death passed upon some especially evil people, for that they have sinned (Romans 5:12o).

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Some can (Job 14:4o)."

"E" in the Scripture references above refers to "exagerated," and "O" refers to "opposite." This is from the "what we wish was true" translation.

Paul_S

I think the words fellowship would be more the idea of worship, or some interaction where it is the deep to deep idea. However, as far as intimate is concerned it would probably dependant on the nature of the conversation. If God was talking to Adam and Eve after the death of Abel, it might certianly be intimate and sensitive. However, I imagine that his tone with Cain when He said, "Where is your brother?" was not intimate but very down to the wire. After Cain claimed not responsiblity, I reckon it when from down to the wire, to pretty much the sound of a lawyers voice, we can only speculate. The facts are God spoke to man and man spoke back, and they were outside of Eden. They had interaction with the God. Intimate fellowship I think is something entirely different, more along the lines of worship. (wait I already said that.)

Sincerely,