The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Fall or Expulsion ?

You say:
Funny thing is that even when I went to Arminian Churches, they taught about the "fall of Adam".

I say:
Now by and Arminian Church, I suspect you mean one that teaches that man has 'free will' and that salvation is by faith works, or some variation on that theme. I was in such a Church for about 5 years; my first five years as a little lamb for Jesus. I guess I only really noticed that they were Arminian after I met a Calvinist, who was a member of this Arminian, well dare I say Calminian Church. Not to get to confusing. I attended the Wednesday night Bible Study and it was a pretty good bible study. I thought he was very balanced telling us to walk the walk, talk the talk and most of all to allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives the wonderful salvation etc. The frustration came when they kept saying, 1. Read your Bible more, 2. Pray more, 3. Do more for the Church, 4. Pay your tithe regularly, 5. Walk in holiness unto the Lord. Now to all intents and purposes these sound perfectly good but when you are not given the truth, over time you begin to become unhappy, unmotivated and just stop going, well not all. Some like to hang in for the coffee, the friendship and the fact that many are old and set in their ways, sort of like some of those in Calvinistic Churches who ride on Donkeyma, I mean Dogma. Sort of stubborn, dogmatic and set in their ways, so if the Spirit were to move they would not even know if He had or hadn't....but I am going to quickly. Now, I guess you are not outright calling me an Arminian, but if you knew me you would not use words like that, or even Semi-Pelagian which was Dr. Pilgrim's diagnosis. The joke is I have been on Arminian sites and they called me a Double Headed Predestinarian after calling me an Evangelical, and best yet a Calvinist on a Calminian site. Somewhere, somehow all the little game with boxing, deep freezing and cutting brothers to shreds in the name of Calvinism, or Arminianism, or any new designation that best describes the group of theological points times five that one associates with as being the ABSOLUTE unalterable truth, has got to STOP!

Robin, from the start has been on my case trying to get me into his Anti-Charismatic club. Now truth be told I am not a Charismatic, but was once a good Baptist, but I just found that all the creedal stuff was so TOP HEAVY, that I began to have a need for fresh air, spiritually speaking. The dull atmosphere and lack of excitement about worshipping Jesus and loving Jesus just really (got my goat) < a good old freemasons term.

So I packed up my things and decided to give your forum a wide berth. You know the guys who throw the Spirit out in favour of their creeds...bone dry religion, very correct but painfully precise and decidedly British, though Calvin was flamboyantly French and a lawyer. None of the systematic that I have heard defended are decidely infallable, or dogmatically Scripturalistic, but instead bend like one of Uri Geller's spoons, should the right heat be approached.

You say:
Yes they were inconsistent in the fact that they taught that the fall caused man to be sick in trespasses and sins, not dead in trespasses and sins. But never the less they still taught the fall of Adam.

I say:
Teaching topically is what some folks like to do. I prefer that sermon that just hangs out, and you have no idea when you are going to be blushing as the Holy Spirit sets to work on your pride, lust or covetousness. Oh the joys of conviction that results in goldly sorrow, leading to genuine repentance and being right with God, oh that sunny smile that follows when you know that you have nothing you are hiding. Adam and Eve were hiding, but only until the Lord called to them and discussed the terms of their banishment and the terms of the curses and beautiful passage relating to the seed that would come. Christ.

I only object to the idea of the fall of man as a title to what happened when it is linked to the idea of total depravity and then an idea called 'spiritually dead' sucked out of nowhere to describe the state of Adam (and Eve) after they disobeyed God's clear command to them, not to eat of the tree. The curse involves death (physical) not death spiritual, that only happened if they outside the garden did not walk and worship the Lord. The most certainly deteriorated until... Yes, they were in hot water with God. It is just making Scripture say what it does not that is a true sign of a dogmatic scripturalist. <I hope you don't think I mean you are.

You say:
This makes me wonder where you might be getting your teaching.

I say:
Well, that is a loaded dice if ever there was, I could say the same to you, but I know where you got it. From j.c. I just find ideas like Total Depravity are good for those who wish to preach the TULIP in perfection, but if you have problems with certain areas it does not mean that out comes the decimating sword of judgement to lop off false doctrine, I do not believe that the TULIP is exact and absolute, maybe to a Calvinist, but to an Arminian it is poison, and just about anyone who does not follow it exactly. I believe I have the Spirit of Christ and those who do not are none of His.

Buzzing,

Straw,

Your rejection of propositional truth for your own "version" of what is acceptable (silly putty doctrine) sounds very familiar. God told Adam directly that on the very day that he ate the fruit of the tree he would die, Gen 2:16, 17. But...

Genesis 3:1-5 (ASV) "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil."

Now sir, with all your "open mindedness", how is it that God said Adam (and Eve implied) would surely die and you say that this death was only physical, yet Adam lived on to the ripe old age of 930 years? Either God lied or your lone ranger interpretation is wrong. Personally, I tend to believe what God says over what any man says. And the Holy Spirit tells me that you are not speaking truth and to point out your error which is a rejection of God and truth. Methinks your propensity for "openness of thought" is akin to putting a screen door in a submarine.

In my many years of ministering to prison inmates one gets to realize what happens to the mind when it has been exposed to drugs. The thinking processes are negatively affected and it becomes increasingly difficult to focus on things. And articulating those wandering thoughts is likewise a challenge. And so, I can't help but wonder after reading your many rambling replies if perhaps you have a history of drug use/abuse? or is it even now going on? I do agree that something is buzzing aside from the population of hummingbirds which frequent my home.

In His grace,

Sir Pilgrim,

Seeing as you are the head-honcho here at the Highway, you can pretty much say whatever you like to say, so I will ignore our comments of those of a man who smokes too much tabakee and drinks too much ale, and whose thick specs are blurring his vision to the rest of the text.

If you say that you can conclude from the text Genesis 3, that Adam and Eve were spiritually dead, and that the serpents interpretation of God's word to them was correct, then it would further be true to say in the light of what follows that God is spiritually dead too. No?
Gen 3:22-24

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

I can add all sorts of ideas to the text that are not there. I can say that man became and independant being just like God and that for Him to continue to be like that by eating the tree of life, would be diabolical. (but the text does not say anywhere what they became other than they became 'as one of us' - It seems they went from being spiritually blind to knowing good and evil, just like 'one of us' Damage control followed and ...

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Whatever Adam had become, he was in a dangerous enough state to warrant expulsion from the garden of Eden, and would certianly with his new found independance make a go at getting some of the nectar from the tree of LIFE.

Now if one is going to stick to strict literal and not metaphysical symbolic, I am not entirely sure how you have extracted as much as I have, which I know is not there. There is nothing plain and simple that says Adam and Eve were now spiritually dead, but rather a future fact that instead of living forever, they would eventually die.

If you believe that Adam and Eve died spiritually then please show me in the book of Genesis, or anywhere else in the bible I can learn this truth. I am being earnest so please refrain from bringing my shame into the game.

His,

Straw,

you're head must be spinning and ready to explode with all these back and forths with numerous board participants. You should probably step away for a while.

One more book I would recommend is The Holiness of God by RC Sproul but read the Augustine book first!

As for Adam & Eve and the spiritual death that resulted from the fall - here's some scriptures referenced from the Westminster Confession -


peace to you!


[1] GEN 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 2CO 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2] ROM 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[3] GEN 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

[4] GEN 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

[5] TIT 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[6] GEN 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ACT 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1CO 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[7] PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. GEN 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. JOB 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

[8] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ROM 7:18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

[9] GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[10] JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. MAT 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

[11] 1JO 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ROM 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. JAM 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

[12]ROM 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[13] 1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[14] ROM 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. ROM 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

[15] EPH 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[16] GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[17] ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[18] EPH 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart.

[19] ROM 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. LAM 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

[20] MAT 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. 2TH 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

add.

I believe that spiritual death would eventually come, you know the second death. However it would be progressive and indeed a mirror of the death that was do come eventually for Adam at 930 and now shame we barely live a tenth of that and we die, to pass onto either the second death or eternal life.

I do not have enough time to really get deeper in right now, but I spied this segment of Robertsons Word Pictures and it was a pretty find exegesis. I thought?

The passage is Romans 5:12 (I hope we will still be looking at Genesis 3 to see if there is any reference to this. Extra revelation given to the Apostles, or in the old testament as to the condition of Adam and Eve after Eden is what would be most needful to reach end game on this one. Have fun, I know I love Genesis very much.)


Over to ye scholars and Hebrew experts.

Shalom. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

God bless you AJC,

You are right. I am burning the candle at both ends. No matter how fine the Westminster Confession is, I discovered that Luther's German translation of Genesis 2 v 17 really does alter matters for me. I will still argue that it might be in reverse. That Adam and Eve's spiritual death was progressive based on how Romans 1 feeds us, but the truth is that the Hebrew says that Adam and Eve died spiritually immediately and that death, that is physical death was progressive: all in that little phrase.

This article I found pretty insightful and the fact that if Adam and Eve only died spiritually would bring on other Old Earth, New Earth hangups. I favour this from the following article:


Thanks for the Sproul book reference. What was the book by Augustine. I am interested in Scofield as well as Augustine, though I know they do look at Genesis and did look at Genesis quite differently to others.

Shalom, happy digging in God's Book.

btw. Thanks for the verses from the olde creedal statement of the divines. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

The article I was referring to, was from Isaac Fried of Boston University and he is like me, knows Hebrew but is no way a theologian. The year course I did helped me some. Luther's German is really quite amazing, "wirst du des Todes sterben", "unto death you will die"! nuff sed, off to bed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Needham's book on Augustine (scroll down to catch my review)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/B...mp;item_code=WW

AJC,

Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox who was expelled from the Holy See by Ratzinger says that Augustine's idea of original sin was no more than and administrative move and that original beauty is what is true. Fox went as far as to prepare a 95 thesis (new one) in 2005 and put it up in the same place Luther had, but this paper calls for a New Reformation. I listened to and interview where he discusses His ideas and if I was not open minded (not vacant minded) I might have shut of the audio and disregarded what he was talking about.

There seems to be an overlap with what is happening in other branches of denominationalism. It is as if there is something of a very mystical nature going on, and more like a synergy of spirituality, where the Mystic has come of age. I mean what did Christians think of Luther when he stapled his thesis up on the CHURCH DOOR... What worries me about our scripturalist dogmatic tradition, is that if we are frozen in time and there is a New Reformation coming will we not be dangerously close to being the frozen edge that never saw a valid overlap and a chance for a genuine reformation of the Spirit?

Excuse me, while I touch the sky. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

(...become as one of us...)

1) The people thought nothing unusual about Luther's "95 Theses" being nailed to the door of Wittenberg Chapel since attaching such writs was the typical practice in those days. It was the content of his remonstrance which caused the stir; negatively among the clerics and positively among the laity.

2) Once again you betray your rejection of absolute, propositional truth; e.g., "the faith [doctrines] once delivered unto the saints." What was true in the days of the Apostles, concerning the revelation of God and His will is no less true today. Truth is eternal, for truth originates with and in God. Reformation does not change the truth but conversely, it casts out error(s) and sinful practices which have crept into the church and re-asserts that old truth all the more boldly. If you are opposed to that truth, which you have openly confessed you are, then the onus is upon you to prove your "new idea(s)" are in fact the truth of God and those long established teachings of the Church are false. You certainly have your work cut out for you and what you hope to succeed at has not been done by anyone before. Best of luck to you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

OH YEAH PILGRIM WELL JUST LOOK AT HOW THE
CHURCH HAS SPLINTERED BECAUSE OF YOUR
FRIEND LUTHER! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />





.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> Ain't it grand though? However, if it wasn't for Luther we never would have been able to sing that little ditty: "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs." Nor would I have my signature line here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> Of course, statistically, methinks the Anabaptists win the prize for being the most schismatic. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />