The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Augustine: Preach Predestination with Caution!

Any comments on this portion of Augustine's commentary???

St. Augustine is always a difficult read, the man had profound things to say about Christianity. I concur with him- he makes great points here on the danger of preaching predestination. The danger of preaching predestination is clear and eloquently put here.


That's going on my list of favorite quotes

On predestination I feel if you are going to preach it- consider the view of "Those who converted he foreknew" After all, God is omniscient and I think it is somewhat of a stretch to believe that God chooses those of us who will become saved- that seems to go against his gift (and curse) of free will.

When I was a kid I ran away from home once. I was gone for nearly two days, and my father looked all over town for me.

He wasn't just looking for any old kid that might be willing to go home with him. He was after me, specifically. A lot of hungry, homeless kids would have been happy to go to my father's house for the food and shelter, safety and security it offered. But my father knew me and sought me until he found me.

That is the picture of predestination that the Bible paints. That's why it's such an awesome and precious truth!

-Robin

Consider that Jesus also said to the "Lord, Lord" folks, "I never knew ye," and you'll see that the foreknowledge of God is not merely "looking forward through the halls of history" -- it is about the love and favor of God, on which see Pink, The Foreknowledge of God.


As Jesus said, "You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

Friend, predestination is "the heart of the gospel" and it is impossible to preach Christ crucified without preaching predestination.

From what I understand about Augustine (having never read him) is that he developed the doctrine of sovereign and particular grace, limited atonement, total depravity, imputed guilt, and salvation by the sovereign work of grace in the heart. Which are all contrary to Rome.

The RCC claims Augustine as one of its saints but rejects his doctrine of predestination, sovereign election and reprobation.

Predestination is not two decrees but one decree of God, reprobation serves election and I might add for the sake of others is not hyper-Calvinism.



William

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Hey YC,

I don't want to discourage you but the point I was making is that predestination should not be preached in a manner that would discourage the faithful hearer to question whether they are indeed elect.

I do believe Augustine is saying that God will give the elect the desire to pray for perseverance throughout their lifetimes becasue they are destined to persevere unlike the reprobate believer whom is destined to fall away.

Augustine says in Chp. 61 - "But now I marvel if any weak brother among the Christian congregation can hear in any way with patience what is connected with these words, when it is said to them, "And if any of you obey, if you are predestinated to be rejected, the power of obeying will be withdrawn from you, that you may cease to obey." For what does saying this seem, except to curse, or in a certain way to predict evils?"


Augustine also goes on to say - "And if any of you obey, if you are foreknown to be rejected you shall cease to obey." Doubtless this is very true, assuredly it is; but it is very monstrous, very inconsiderate, and very unsuitable, not by its false declaration, but by its declaration not wholesomely applied to the health of human infirmity."


Here's the whole commentary to consider. Augustine is not disputing that there are some who are not predestined but he is concerned about discouraging the faithful or speaking condemningly of the reprobate which are not known to us when preaching.

Chapter 61.

But now I marvel if any weak brother among the Christian congregation can hear in any way with patience what is connected with these words, when it is said to them, "And if any of you obey, if you are predestinated to be rejected, the power of obeying will be withdrawn from you, that you may cease to obey." For what does saying this seem, except to curse, or in a certain way to predict evils? But if, however, it is desirable or necessary to say anything concerning those who do not persevere, why is it not rather at least said in such a way as was a little while ago said by me,—first of all, so that this should be said, not of them who hear in the congregation, but about others to them; that is, that it should not be said, "If any of you obey, if you are predestinated to be rejected," but, "If any obey," and the rest, using the third person of the verb, not the second? For it is not to be said to be desirable, but abominable, and it is excessively harsh and hateful to fly as it were into the face of an audience with abuse, when he who speaks to them says, "And if there are any of you who obey, and are predestinated to be rejected, the power of obedience shall be withdrawn from you, that you may cease to obey." For what is wanting to the doctrine if it is thus expressed: "But if any obey, and are not predestinated to His kingdom and glory, they are only for a season, and shall not continue in that obedience unto the end"? Is not the same thing said both more truly and more fittingly, so that we may seem not as it were to be desiring so much for them, as to relate of others the evil which they hate, and think does not belong to them, by hoping and praying for better things? But in that manner in which they think that it must be said, the same judgment may be pronounced almost in the same words also of God's foreknowledge, which certainly they cannot deny, so as to say, "And if any of you obey, if you are foreknown to be rejected you shall cease to obey." Doubtless this is very true, assuredly it is; but it is very monstrous, very inconsiderate, and very unsuitable, not by its false declaration, but by its declaration not wholesomely applied to the health of human infirmity.

As for eternal security or assurance/certainty one is elect - I don't think Augustine developed that part of his view on Perseverance. He obviously believed in predestination and perseverance but I don't know if he ever took a firm stance on assurance or the believer's personal knowledge of eternal security. Obviously the reformers developed that part of it.

Assurance is an area I struggle with also. Personally, I don't have it. And I belong to a church that does not help foster it becasue they fear that they will promote premature conversions. We all continue to sin, and become blinded and deluded by it - in my estimation our indwelling sin and the assaults of the devil make it difficult for the true believer to have total assurance without doubts and fears creeping in from time to time.

So I, like Augustine, believe in Perseverance of the elect, but I would say both of us struggle with the idea that the believer will ever feel eternally secure while walking the earth - I hope I will eventually experience such awareness (assurance) and if I don't that I will not need to in order to still be saved.