The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Gods Character??

I know the problem I am having. I do not understand fully volition vs desire. Perhaps becasue I do nto subscribe to the school that says God has 2 wills. Therefore I may be overlapping my thoughts on that with man. Since I never found it necessary to study and type of scriptural psychology, this is where I am in understanding.


This is what the definition i found for volition.
1 : an act of making a choice or decision; also : a choice or decision made
2 : the power of choosing or determining : WILL

As an aside, why does the Holy Spirit have to use means? Can He just not supernaturally casue something? Scripture says yes, but I constantly see secondary causes, circumstances put in the mix. I am not denying these are used at times, but not always.

Moses didnt want to lead Israel. Argued with God. his desire was not to be the sapokesman. Yet he ended up going to pharoah.

I just see no problem with saying God can and does at times violate(to use your term) mans will or volition. What harm would it casue?

Edited: Added the addendum from the second post here.

Joe,

You said


What you say is simply not what the apostle Paul is saying in Romans 3:

Paul's claim here is that There is NONE who seeks for God. He includes everyone. By our fallen nature, there is therefore not a single person that desires to serve God or who seeks his will. If God were to leave us to ourselves this world would have been an utterly terrible place. His common grace, however, prevents such a situation and we therefore see that unbelievers also has eg. some sense for rightousness. But that does not mean they have the desire to serve God.

Johan

No, Joe, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm not saying that man has two wills, I'm saying the word "will" in English is ambiguous and can be used to describe "volition" or "desire." Volition is the power of choosing.


I didn't say secondary means were necessarily used.


Moses wasn't forced to go to Pharaoh against his own power to choose. It may not have been his first desire, but he did act and go to Pharaoh.


The problem, especially with regards to the reprobate, is that men cannot be held accountable for things which they have no ability to choose. So if God were to force a man to murder another person, against the man's will, then how can that man be held accountable when he did not make the choice?

I dont know. Becasue God says man is. I can live with that. Like I pointed out earlier, scripture does not give us a clear answer. In my first post regarding Romans 9, again this question is asked. And Paul only says "Who are you to reply against God. Job begged God for answers and was given none. So why must we concoct some misnomer of 'mans responsibility" as if we need some answer. I personally dont. I know man is held accountable for sin. But yet God ordains all. and "WHo are we to reply against God?" Thats all Paul said. The reprobate are not reprobated becasue of sin, they are reprobated becasue of His will alone. So why does sin have to play a part? I know this whole conversation encompasses a ton of territory. And I appreciate you and Pilgrim. I just see no problem saying that God can manipulate man and does all the time into fulfilling His will. And still hold man accountable for his actions. Becasue He is God.

Again lets look at Mr Gill:

there is none that seeketh after God; that worships him in Spirit and in truth, or prays to him with the Spirit, and with the understanding; who seek him chiefly, and in the first place, with their whole hearts, earnestly, diligently, and constantly; who seek him in Christ, and under the assistance of the Spirit; who seek after the knowledge of God in Christ, communion with him through the Mediator, or his honour and glory.

I never said this was the case of many in the world who vainly worship God. So this whole idea MUST be qualified some. Even Simon Magus served God in a way according to his own mind

But that is NOT the issue. Everyone here can agree that God "manipulates" man . . . but NOT by "compelling/forcing" man to do that which he does not will to do. The end of it all is that God works in such a way that EVERY decision that man makes is: 1) free and 2) in accord with his nature. It's not THAT difficult of a concept to wrap your brain around. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is decidedly a whole other subject which could be discussed and has been for centuries. The issue is "Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism". My personal stand is comfortably Infra as was the majority of those who worked on and signed the WCF. Supralapsarians tend to be hyper-Calvinists, e.g., the Protestant Reformed Church, John Gill, et al. So, being in the Infra camp I would assert that God's election was done "on account of the Fall" which He decreed, i.e., seeing the human race as fallen, God in His infinite mercy and grace chose to save a remnant of mankind in Christ for His own glory.

If you are interested in getting a further headache pursuing this subject, you can read these:

- Development of the Doctrine of Predestination, by Herman Bavinck
- Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism, by Herman Bavinck
- Double Predestination, by R.C. Sproul, Sr.

Further discussion on this particular topic should be done in its own thread. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

I agree that God ordains all and that men are held accountable, Joe. That's not the issue. The issue is, as Pilgrim pointed out, whether God FORCES men to do things AGAINST their will. He doesn't.


Joe, why do men burn in hell? Because of SIN. God created man upright and good and in His own image. Hell is punishment for sin. Election is to everlasting life; reprobation to everlasting death. These are categories that are only possible in light of the Fall.


There is a difference between saying that God "manipulates" men and that he "forces them against their will"! Men always act IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR WILL. That is part and parcel of the nature of man. God does not force men to do things which they will not to do.

That's terrible thinking Joe.


William

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God did not force anyone to fulfill His predetermined plan. No one who partcipated in it did so against their will or against their nature. The Jews wanted to conduct that illegal trial and wanted the Lord crucified.

Murder is not God's moral will. He forbids it in His law! Yet He planned the murder of His only Son and saw it accomplished. Not because He forced anyone to do what they didn't want to so He could blame them. But because He created them to do that so He could save them. This is providence, not bullying.

We are limited in our choices by two things: Our ability and our desire. A male cannot become pregnant because he doesn't have the capacity for it. No matter how much he may desire to. He is limited to choose only within his ability.

Do not suggest that regeneration forces a new nature upon an unwilling person and compels him to become a Christian! The Scripture does not describe regeneration that way. Rather it is an act of liberation, freeing the will that was bound to sin and bestowing new ability that makes new choices possible. A regenerated heart that is free and able to choose obedience is certain to do so because that is its nature. And because it has the ability and desire to do so. Not because it was forced. But because it has been liberated.

Not terrible thinking william. But as Pilgrim pointed out, this should be another thread, and I dont know how to transfer it. As an aside, Scripture makes a distinction between reprobation and damnation. Men are damned becasue of sin eternally. but not reprobated because of sin. IF it was, then the reason lies in man and not in Gods pleasure.

I apologise for not seeing the difference. Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 (NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

At the point in time of regeneration, that instance of transformation, they are acted upon against thier natural will. There is no malicious coercion, there is no gun pointing to their head, just a God of Love who comes to His elect sheep and changes them from a obstinate heart to a willing one. This supernatural act is against the elects will per se. Yes, after they are willing, but not at the exact point and time of regeneration which we dont know where it comes from as the wind. Lazarus was dead, his will was nonexistant.

Article 12 of the COD:
Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Look at every time the word draw is used in the writ. HELKO. It means to drag off, impel by force."And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!"

James 2:6 "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?"

This drawing was not done under the willingness of the person bringing them before the judgement seat.

"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers." Acts 16

"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW him..." (Jn. 6:44)

Once we are regenerated/DRAWN, we do become willing. I have no issue with that at all.

1) You don't "transfer" anything. Just start a new thread with your chosen topic!

2) You either didn't read the articles I recommended to you on this off-topic subject, particularly the one by R.C. Sproul, Double Predestination, or you have read them and again choose to stand against the historic doctrine of the Church. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> But regardless, which is the case, without sin being considered in the decree of God, of necessity, God becomes the author of sin and man cannot be held accountable for anything he thinks, says or does.

Either start a new thread or drop the subject..... !!

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> Oy vey... now you are confusing regeneration and efficacious grace. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Regeneration does NOT... I repeat and stress DOES NOT "violate", "go against", "compel", etc., man's natural will. In regeneration the will is RE-CREATED. What this means is that the two elements (intellective and affections) which control the will are radically transformed, i.e., the entire disposition (nature) of the sinner is changed and thus the will is given the ability to do that which it was not previously ABLE to do. And with this new disposition/nature, the will obeys most naturally and freely, WITHOUT being forced against itself.

Irresistible Grace, however involves a "drawing" (irresistible force) in that the mind and affections are overwhelmed with a need to repent of sins and grab hold of Christ due to the new nature's ability to apprehend the calling of the Holy Spirit in the Gospel. The regenerate aren't "dragged" against their will, but rather according to their will. In fact, the "compulsion" to come to Christ is so strong that if necessary, the person would do so by force against anything that got in the way. THAT is the type of "force", "dragging", "compulsion" that a regenerate sinner experiences in conversion.... NOT... regeneration. Regeneration is both silent and imperceivable to the individual. The results of regeneration are what the person experiences but not regeneration itself.

In His grace,

I did not know there was a difference Pilgrim. What about the word draw. You didnt comment on the fact it does mean drag by force unwillingly.

Joe,

Actually, I believe I did comment on the word "draw" and confirmed that it does indeed mean "drag". But that "dragging/drawing" is NOT against a man's will but in accordance with a man's will. It simply means an "irresistible" force without reference to anything more. Just as an unregenerate person is "compelled" to sin due to the predisposition of the corrupt nature, a regenerate person is "compelled" to repent of sin and embrace Christ due to the influence of the new nature. In both cases the person acts in accordance with their respective natures. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Methinks that perhaps you need to do a little study concerning what Calvinism actually teaches; i.e., in the "narrow" sense in regard to Soteriology; aka: the doctrine of salvation. You can find some articles that deal with that here: General articles on Calvinism and on the specific individual doctrines here: Soteriology - The Doctrine of Salvation.

In His grace,