The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum What is the Lombardian Formula

I am approaching this in a calm discussion among brethren mode, not in a lets get riled up one!

At this point I'm not 100% sure if you are simply incapable of grasping the totality and significance of what I and others have laid out before you? Or, that you are so enamored and held captive by the influence of Tolerant Calvinism? Or, you are genuinely opposed to biblical Calvinism and that one of its fundamental teachings is that God is TOTALLY SOVEREIGN in salvation and that only a REMNANT will be saved through the true Gospel only? But whatever the reason is in your case, you refuse to interact with nearly any question asked of you and rarely if ever provide Scriptural support for your view. The bottom line is most, including myself, have to believe that your responses only amounts to... "Don't confuse me with the facts!! I've got my mind already made up."

The question you ask above is a non sequitur. Salvation of a sinner does not depend upon the person's knowledge of historic Calvinism and/or the ability to articulate it adequately. The issue is and always has been, which you consistently avoid like the plague, is the TRUTH which Scripture teaches about God, man, the Fall, Christ, the Holy Spirit, redemption, justification, sanctification and the final judgment which is infamously known by the name "Calvinism" and which makes up the Gospel necessary in salvation. Secondly, when this TRUTH is presented to sinners and which is revealed by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit to those who have been elected to salvation in Christ, there are incontrovertible effects due to the radical transformation of a person's nature/soul. As explained several times to you throughout this discussion, the two indispensable and fundamental results of the Spirit's work is a heart-felt conviction of sin and guiltiness before God bringing the person to total despair and repentance... And, a realization of God's inexorable holiness and sovereignty Who took upon Himself human flesh in order to redeem His people from damnation and reconcile them to God through His vicarious and substitutionary death and resurrection. It is ONLY through the TRUTH does God call sinners to repentance and faith, for God cannot do otherwise for He hates anything and everyone that is not of the truth.

The new birth opens the truth to a sinner's mind, affections and will. It is in sanctification that a Christian grows in grace and in the knowledge of God which saved him. One is not given to put faith in a false God, false Jesus nor to embrace a false gospel only later to reject all that their false faith was resting upon and learn the truth. There is not even a hint of any such teaching in Scripture. This is a lie of the Devil and promoted by the musing's of men's invention which balks against the plain teaching of God's inspired Word.

Lastly, and again I have asked the same question to you before to which you have never addressed... "does that really matter?" Why don't YOU answer that question? IF 'grace+works=justification', which is what ALL non-Reformed/Calvinistic religions teach is capable of saving sinners, then why don't you embrace it, if you don't do so already secretly since untold millions according to you are saved through that teaching? Why waste time with academic disputes, e.g., biblical Calvinism vs. supply whatever religion, sect, cult here? One's salvation, according to YOU does not depend upon knowledge of the truth for according to YOU untold numbers of people who profess to be Christians but embrace and teach heretical doctrines are saved. And thus I have repeatedly asked you..... "what difference does it make?" Why not use whatever "works" to get people to accept a few Christian phrases and read a short pre-written prayer on the back of a CCC's card? or get people to walk the isle up to the front of a church or revival meeting and have some self-appointed evangelist pronounce them saved? or have people simply bow their head, raise their hand where they sit and ask Jesus into their heart? Why bother with the biblical Gospel which is obviously in your estimation is a hindrance to saving souls?

I just think that the Lord will and does save sinners who hear the Gospel message, and that once saved, if they heard it from a non calvinist teacher/preacher, the lord would desire them to become wise and grow in the ways of calvinism...
You see Calvinism as the ONLY way to teach and exlain the Gospel, but I see it as being the BEST way...

I have echoed this myriad times to you myself. But again, you don't answer questions and do not interact with the differences we hold to be true. In the case of this statement we are miles apart since I believe in a totally different definition of what the biblical Gospel is vs. your Sandemanian gospel which Paul calls "another gospel" and then adds, "which is not another". In other words, there is only ONE Gospel and anything other than that ONE Gospel is to be totally rejected and those who bring it are "anathema" cursed.

We also are in total disagreement on the nature of faith. I believe that Scripture teaches that true saving faith is fiduciary (cf. Berkhof's section on saving faith in his Systematic Theology), i.e., it involves the whole man; intellect, affections, and will. You have repeatedly said that faith is nothing more than an assent to 3 or 4 statements concerning Christ, His dying for my sins, the resurrection and a saying you are a sinner. This is historically known as "Sandemanianism", aka: "Easy Believism" and sometimes "Decisional Regeneration". There is no content to your so-called gospel and thus there is no object for a sinner to have faith in. There is no salvation available in believing a false gospel, in another Jesus, another Spirit. You have never given one biblical example of a sinner being saved by believing in a false gospel.

And here you finally have come out of the closet and confessed that you do not believe in absolute truth. For if Calvinism IS the truth than there can be no other way to teach and explain the Gospel. And anything other than the truth is a lie. Thus, as you have said in so many ways on multiple occasions, you do believe that sinners are saved by believing a false gospel, which again Paul says, there is no other gospel.

Based on your response, I do not think you understood me. I did not accuse you of being riled up.

Tom

I believe that God saves a sinner ONLY due to the death of jesus has purchased them back to God, as he is the propiation for their sin debt owed to God, and that the person receives Jesus thru faith, which is granted to them as a gift from God, as only those God intended to get saved, the elect, will get saved!

You can choose to label me as a tolerant Calvinist, and I would just say that there are many who view this issue same way that I do...

And I Know MANY who the Lord has saved, and has transformed their lives, and many of them were saved while in catholic church, and who came out and became now Baptists, and some have acceptd reformed theology, while others have not...

Just to be clear, no one was saved while holding to Roman Catholic doctrine. No one. When a Roman Catholic, just like any unbeliever, is converted, they will not continue with false doctrine! They will flee the false church for they would not have their beloved Christ maligned which is what a false gospel does. Anyone who claims to be converted by believing in a Jesus who is NOT the Jesus who bears the attributes as taught in Scripture, such as those who are not in line with Reformed teaching (aka Calvinism) simply are not saved. They are trusting in a false gospel and a false gospel does not save. Anyone who believes that those who are trusting in a false gospel are saved, is in great error. Just because someone professes that they are a Christian does not mean that they are true believers. The god of the Arminian/semi-pelagian is not the God of the Bible. It is a false idol, although called by the same name, and therefore unable to save.

Just for the purpose of declaration. and making matters clear, JesusFan. It behooves us to use Scripture for any declaration we make, as we have no basis for any valid point, but the statements of the Bible.. Our Lord said, "ye do err, not knowing the Scripture nor the power of God. "

Is it just myself, or is it fact? I have never seen you post a single Bible verse to back up anythng you have ever stated as divine truth. Hopefully you have, but I missed it. Paul says "Only Scripture is profitabe, since it is God's breathed out Word" II Tim 3:16

Since Scripture settles matters. Would you please cite verses, which teach man is converted without a sense of his sinfulnes of which he himself cannot cure, or remedy. If none seek after God , Rom 3:9,10. How can a man decide which you say becomes the basis of one's salvation, "when He has no will to do so?" Jn l:13, which are born ...yet not of their will to be born?

You make clear, you believe many are saved in churches where the "Gospel is not the message, but a decision one makes about Jesus." So it is either one or the other; can one make a decision and be saved because of that decision?

Which may be a good time to ask you. "do you believe your salvation is based upon a decision you made, and if so, then you are not a Christian, and if not, how can you justify saying, anyone is saved that way."

Anyone on this thread, understands what is meant by "decisional regeneration," which you wrongly argue can produce salvation, and yet later on, they will be taught their wills were not involved.. when they come to a deeper understanding of truth, you advocate.

At some point of honesty, you must face the clear fact...You are really in a blind alley with no way out.

I pray that you will see this.

many in my Church, including the senior pastor, came out from the church of Rome once saved by the Lord....

Are you saying that NONE with Armianion non cal churches are saved then, as per you are under a false Gospel message?

The Holy Spirit will take the scripture and use it to produce regeneration within the sinner whom God has chosen to get saved by the message of the Cross, as that message is preached and taught in both Calvinistic and non cal churches, and once the sinner is saved, then they are to be searching the scriptures to see what the lord states on this issue.

Both a calvinist and a non cal pastor would preah off the same message regrading salvation, and while the calvinist one has a better understanding on how God saves us, do you really see that none are able to get saved apart from Calvinism then?

JesusFan I don't think that is what she was saying at all. If your pastor is saved and I trust that he is. Then, it wasn't a false Goapel message that saved him. It was the pure unadulterated Gospel.
The fact that he came out of the Roman Catholic Church shows that he recognized that the RCC had false doctrine. This indicates that at some point, the true Gospel message was presented to him.
Tom

NO, NO, NO! Roman Catholicism teaches another gospel, a false gospel, as does the Arminianism and no one is saved through them. Truth does not come out of falsehood and a false gospel does not save anyone. If someone is saved whilst attending one of these heretical organizations, such as Roman Catholicism or any of these arminian/semi-pelagian (false) churches, it is not because of the message they teach. It is contrary to that. The individual may read the Scriptures for himself and despite what his church is teaching him, may come to a sincere conviction and have a deep remorse for their sin and come to faith in Christ Jesus alone for salvation. But it is in spite of their church's teaching and once they are converted, they will come out from amongst these heretics.

I agree with Tom here and would say also that IF your pastor is truly saved, it is not through the teaching of the RCC. Not a chance. And I also do hope that he is truly converted. I am quite discouraged that you still are unable to distinguish the true gospel from the false and think that one can believe what he will and be saved. Even though it has been carefully laid out here for you over the past number of months, and you still believe that a man can be saved by believing in a false gospel. A false gospel teaching another Jesus and not the Biblical Jesus. It is idolatry JF. This is a serious matter and I bid you to repent of this. You have been told that the arminian god is not Omniscient, Omnipresent, or Omnipotent and so is not the true God of the Bible. This god is an idol which cannot save. So, if you are embracing this false god, your soul is in peril and you need to repent and seek the true God with all of your mind, heart and strength while He may yet be found.

JesusFan
Perhaps it would be helpful for you to tell us what a non-Calvinist Church might say that is the true Gospel, that would lead someone to salvation.

Tom

Thought I would also give you a link to a Paul Washer sermon on the idolatry of decisional evangelism. https://timmybrister.com/2008/11/paul-washer-decisional-regeneration-and-first-baptist-woodstock/

Tom

Tom, why bother? JesusFan has consistently refused to answer nearly every and any question asked of him by everyone here. Additionally, he has been given total freedom to defend his view from Scripture and/or reason, which he has also refused to do. All that he has done is to use the same mantra that individuals are "saved" by simply giving assent to 3 or 4 propositions, aka: Sandemanianism/Easy Believism/Decisional Regeneration. He contradicts himself constantly by acknowledging that Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism is a false gospel vs. Calvinism is the true Gospel, yet just yesterday he wrote:

For someone who claims to have read through 4 calvinisitic systematic theology books/sets and make the above statement, there are only a few logical conclusions one can make:

1. He is void of any ability to comprehend what he reads.
2. He has an agenda to promote the heresies of Arminianism and/or semi-Pelagianism.
3. He dreams of a One World Church where everyone is welcome regardless of what beliefs they embrace.
4. He is a "Troll" that gets his kicks by doing what he has done here; basically mocking biblical Christianity.
5. Whatever.......

One of the major problems which is damnable heresy as well as blaspheme is that he believes that the thrice holy God of the Bible uses falsehood, lies, deceit and all that is contrary to what He has revealed Himself to be in the Scriptures, to save sinners. In short, JesusFan believes that the sin of the natural man in regard to God and all that is good; Idolatry and Lawlessness, is the very same thing which God uses to bring a sinner to salvation. I have no doubt that any true church would excommunicate this man if he espoused these things and refused to cease and desist promoting them and did not express genuine repentance toward God and the church. Actually, no true church would accept him into membership with such heretical views.

PS. There is also an article on The Highway that is more than well known and worthy of mention in regard to Decisional Regeneration, written by James E. Adams.