Donations for the month of January


We have received a total of "$0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 4,403
Joined: April 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,718
Posts54,516
Members974
Most Online732
Jan 15th, 2023
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,351
Tom 4,403
chestnutmare 3,263
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,854
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 16
Recent Posts
Left Wing News trying to Blackmail RW News
by Tom - Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:27 PM
Transformation
by NetChaplain - Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:29 PM
The Blessings of Our Trials
by NetChaplain - Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:04 PM
Christian Political Broadcast
by Tom - Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:33 PM
Civil Government and the 1647 Westminster Confession
by Tom - Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:29 AM
Global Warming FIXED!
by Pilgrim - Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:57 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#58050 Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,403
Likes: 10
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,403
Likes: 10
Talking to an Arminian about Eph. 2: 8-9 and he mentions something I am no expert on.
I believe it is safe to say that in these verses both grace and faith are gifts of God.
I am hoping someone can speak to the following better than I can?

Arminian:
Quote
Grace is the indirect object, the dative case in Greek. Faith is not- it is the genitive case, showing possession or “by way of.” Faith is not the gift.

Probably, the best way to translate this would be “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this (grace received through faith, or salvation) is not your own doing; it is the gift of God…”

Only grace is being given as a gift. It is given as a gift through our faith. Faith is not what is being given.

Last edited by Tom; Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:26 PM.
Tom #58058 Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,854
Permanent Resident
Offline
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,854
No expert here, but the Arminian saying, 'is not of your own doing' rules out that Arminian position.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Tom #58060 Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,351
Likes: 52
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,351
Likes: 52
Probably more than you would like in an answer, but Dr. Joel Beeke's article linked below will certainly provide much from which you can choose what serves you best.

Justification by Faith Alone (The Relation of Faith to Justification)


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Tom #58061 Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,403
Likes: 10
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,403
Likes: 10
I guess what I am asking is dealing directly with the Arminians comments themselves. I believe he said grace is in the dative sense, while faith is not, it in the genitive sense.

That is something that goes over my head.

Last edited by Tom; Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:49 PM.
Tom #58062 Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,351
Likes: 52
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,351
Likes: 52
This person's Greek grammar is faulty!!!

CONTEXT as always is important; both near and far. Look at 2:5 "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)". As stated in v.5 "by this grace (by it alone, the article to indicate the very grace just mentioned) have you been saved," aetc. This repetition is emphatic: the past act of rescue plus the resultant condition of safety (periphrastic perfect) is entirely due to God (the agent in the passive) and to the grace He used as His means. The emphasis again is upon the dative. But now Paul expands the statement by adding "by means of (or through) faith," living trust in Christ and all His redemptive work. God accomplishes His purpose of delivering the Ephesians when by the power of His grace and the means of this grace (the Word) He kindled faith in their hearts. Faith is not something that we on our part produce and furnish toward our salvation but is produced in our hearts by God (regeneration by the Spirit) to accomplish His purpose in us.

Col. 2:12 states this directly: "through the faith of the operation of God." One often meets careless statements such as: "Grace is God's part, faith ours." Now the simple fact is that even in human relations faith and confidence are produced in us by others, by what they are and what they do; we never produce it ourselves. There is no self-produced faith; faith is wrought in us. Saving faith is wrought by the saving grace of God.

All is of God and so important is this matter that Paul adds explanatory specifications: "and this (is) not from yourselves." The neuter touto does not refer to pistis (faith) or to xaris (grace), both of which are feminine, but to the divine act of saving us: this that you have been saved Paul denies categorically that this is in any manner due to the Ephesians themselves. The source and origin ('ek) is not in you; it is wholly and only in God. As little as a dead man can do the least toward making himself alive, so little can the spiritually dead contribute the least toward obtaining spiritual life. Without a connective or een a copula Paul introduces the opposite: "God's the gift!" His and His alone. The emphasis is on the genitive. "The gift" (definite) = the salvation He has given to you. Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 39 guests, and 20 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
PaulWatkins, His Unworthy Son, Nahum, TheSojourner, Larry
974 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
January
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,419,599 Gospel truth