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Anthony C. #59998 Tue Oct 21, 2025 4:37 PM
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This is party from other things you said in other replied you made.

I thought I would end my part in the conversation by saying a few things.
Mainly because the friend that I told you about read James Baird’s book and told me some things based on his book. That I believe give a lot more information than the podcast said.

First of all, much of what my friend told me, I have actually heard Voddie Baucham say in sermons.
As I said before to the question: “Voddie are you a Christian Nationalist?” Earlier this year, Voddie said: “Maybe, depending on your definition of a Christian Nationalist…”. This can be heard in the video I sent you with Voddie.
Having watched Voddie in his sermons, talking about Social Justice, Cultural Marxism, etc.., he would often refer back to the founding fathers of the United States, and Scripture, in order to show that these are opposed to their vision for the country.

From what my friend showed me, Voddie would be very much in agreement with James Baird.

You are free to agree, or disagree with any part of this. However, I believe on my part I can’t afford to spend any more time on this.
————————————————-

I am shortening this a bit, because it is long.
Rebuttal to your saying :

Quote
1. “Natural law foundations of justice and social order are completely Christian.”

That statement is half true—but incomplete.
Yes, natural law flows from the Creator’s moral order, as Romans 2:14–15 shows that the law is “written on the heart.” But it is insufficient apart from special revelation. Fallen man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18). Therefore, without the corrective light of Scripture, natural law becomes a wax nose—shaped by human reason, cultural sentiment, or even pagan philosophy.

The American Founders understood this distinction. They did not see natural law as a replacement for revealed religion but as its reflection. The same men who framed the Constitution also wrote state constitutions that explicitly acknowledged the Christian Protestant religion as foundational. This was not because they distrusted reason, but because they knew reason is fallen and must be governed by divine truth.

To affirm natural law while denying the necessity of revealed religion is to cut the flower from its root—you may preserve the fragrance for a time, but it will soon wither.



2. You said:
Quote
Christian Nationalists are a distraction from the corruption in culture.

This accusation misunderstands both history and the biblical mandate for civil order.
When Christians affirm that rulers must “kiss the Son” (Psalm 2:12), they are not distracting from corruption—they are confronting its cause. The culture is corrupt precisely because rulers and citizens alike have rejected the authority of Christ over the nation.

The early American founders, from Massachusetts to Delaware, recognized that true religion was essential to good governance. That conviction did not distract them from the moral decay of their time—it was their remedy for it.
To dismiss this today as a “distraction” is to treat spiritual obedience as political overreach. But as Proverbs 14:34 declares, “Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.” The problem is not that Christians want to see righteousness applied to law; the problem is that many modern Christians have surrendered that vision.



3. You said:
Quote
They seek to make every citizen acknowledge the Lordship of Christ.

That’s a distortion.
No faithful Christian—past or present—believes civil law can regenerate hearts. The goal is not coerced conversion but righteous governance under Christ’s kingship.
Early Americans did not punish unbelief; they simply expected that public servants uphold the moral and religious framework consistent with the gospel that shaped their civilization.

The Founders knew there is no neutrality in public life. Every government serves a god—either the true God or a false one. To claim the state can be “secular” is itself a religious statement—it deifies man. Christian Nationalism, in its historic sense (Voddie Baucham agrees), simply insists that nations have a duty to recognize Christ’s authority (Psalm 2:8–10; Matthew 28:18–20).



1. You said:
Quote
What will the nationalists do that has not already been established in our long-standing history?

Quite a lot, actually—but not in the way critics imagine.
Christian Nationalists, properly defined, are not inventing something new; they are calling America back to her own history—a time when her constitutions, laws, and moral expectations reflected a Protestant framework. (this is an important point).
In 1778, South Carolina declared the Christian Protestant religion to be the official religion of the state. Massachusetts empowered its legislature to fund the “public worship of God.” Delaware and Vermont required public officials to profess faith in Christ.

If that heritage is “long-standing,” then the real innovation came not from Christian Nationalists but from 20th-century secular revisionism. The 1947 Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the First Amendment was the radical break—not those who wish to restore the founding order.



5. You said:
Quote
Christian Nationalism is building a boogeyman.

That’s an ironic charge, given that the supposed “boogeyman” is nothing more than the biblical vision of Christ’s kingship applied to civic life.
The Founders did not fear that idea—they legislated from it. They saw the magistrate as a “nursing father” to the church, in line with Isaiah 49:23. They knew civil government is a minister of God (Romans 13:4), not a morally neutral referee.

Modern critics call this dangerous, but the danger lies not in a government that acknowledges God—it lies in one that denies Him. A state that refuses to honor Christ inevitably honors idols: human autonomy, sexual perversion, or statism.

The call to restore a distinctly Christian order is not the creation of a monster; it is the return of sanity.



6. The Real Question

The issue is not whether nations will be religious—it’s which religion will govern them. The American Founders chose Christianity, not paganism.
Modern secularists have merely swapped one orthodoxy for another: the worship of man instead of the worship of God. Those who appeal to “natural law” while rejecting Christ’s Lordship end up enthroning human reason, which history shows is the cruelest master of all.

Thus, to insist on the Lordship of Christ over nations is not fanaticism—it is faithful stewardship. Anything less is rebellion disguised as moderation.



Conclusion

The American Founders were Christian nationalists in principle if not in label. They did not fear the union of Christianity and civil order, so long as it was bounded by Scripture and reason.
Their vision was not a theocracy but a Christian Constitutional Republic—a free society governed by laws that reflect God’s moral order. To reject that today is to reject the very foundation on which America was built.

So the question isn’t, as you stated: “What will Christian Nationalists do that hasn’t already been done?”
It’s, “Why have we abandoned what our fathers knew to be good, true, and necessary for liberty?”

What about people like Thomas Jefferson?

The First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”) was written to limit Congress, not the states. It prevented the federal government from creating or prohibiting religion, while leaving the states free to support or establish Christianity as they saw fit. Jefferson himself affirmed this in his correspondence after his presidency.

Last edited by Tom; Tue Oct 21, 2025 4:41 PM.
Tom #59999 Tue Oct 21, 2025 5:30 PM
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Tom, you don’t know when to quit when you’re ahead.

So in this latest video (see below), the author appears ok with letting the states determine the religion of choice. What denominations are making the cut. The rest of your responses in your last post do not even follow your main position…so you’re all over the place brother…. You cherry pick what statements you want to respond to (which I will easily pick apart) and disappear for days before responding - you don’t know how to converse in good faith.

On the previous video I posted, it seems the author’s intentions were good. He spoke of having a ten commandment statue or whatever erected in some local statehouse which seems like a token “victory” of some sort. I do think it’s good to awaken the consciences of local officials - I don’t want to be so cynical that I can’t see good in that. It seems like these are young men with young children. So I guess the individual Christian citizens is the target audience. Some of the things he said on that first linked podcast seemed bordering on absurd considering our current context. But it sounds like you are saying all government officials need to be catechized - which denomination should take the lead? How’s that going down in Canada - sounds like a fairytale. Try getting your people in the church pews first maybe.

I’m surprised (and not suprised it’s left somewhat unchallenged) that he admitted that the states decided what religion would be promoted (that can really backfire in this day and age).
https://www.youtube.com/live/Vs1sdVpY258?si=--50FqvFjJC9oiln

He also insists that religion/ideology is promoted regardless. I think this is why I’ve grown to favor natural law as a catalyst for what’s GOOD for society as natural law principles are most purely defined and upheld in biblical truth and reality - so why would we go down the road of trying to sway public opinion toward true religion for temporal ends. We can’t even get many people to accept true religion for the betterment of their own souls - why would they accept that for the government when they’re already seduced otherwise. I think it’s fine to communicate to your magistrates of their responsibilities before God and man. Do you believe church denominations is to be tasked with this or just private citizens?

However, we can’t even successfully point out that they are promoting religious principles based on anti-Christian unnatural law. That would probably be the best starting point.

Again, he has no practical plan, just a bunch good of sounding ideas. (My church already prays for the magistrates - what else do we need to do?)

How does his ideas get carried out on a national scale and what is the plan when the repercussions may result in the potential for state sponsored heretical religions. Why do we believe that the majority of the citizenry will support these efforts. What is the contingency plan if these efforts make us look like we are trying to take over the government and the freedom to practice true religion is adversely affected as a result?

Also, please acknowledge Pilgrim and whether he is right or wrong instead of acting like he’s not even a part of the discussion. Your silence to him makes it sound like you are taking the opinion of this author above his. I don’t really have a major horse in this fight but I’m not going to waste my time on a theory with no action plan. That’s a silly debate and a much sillier argument made to just feel good about oneself. At least it seems like Robin is actually doing something.

Last edited by Anthony C.; Tue Oct 21, 2025 8:43 PM.
Tom #60000 Tue Oct 21, 2025 8:02 PM
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My responses:
1. So you want the state to become the church? Reread all of pilgrims posts for further insight. Nobody is arguing against the good of Christianity, but we have to deal with where we are now. Do you recommend that the government catechizes the citizens? The founders never had to make such requirements because at the very least a form of Christianity was prevalent and they wanted to flourish. That is not the reality today nor did it guarantee that the citizenry would embrace TRUE religion for even the benefit of their souls let alone the good of the state. So how do we rewind ?

2. I’m talking about now. We didn’t get here overnight. What is the political avenues to get us back to the “authority of Christ”? Are you saying that the majority of the citizenry were truly converted Trinitarians or that they were outwardly not as far gone? Were we closer to a sinless society or just more grateful for our newfound freedom? (For more on this see my last post about the danger of exchanging the freedom to embrace true religion for a new moral majority).

3. “righteous governance under Christ’s kingship.” What’s the plan? When exactly did we lose this righteous governance exactly? Why? And how do we get back there from where we are now?

4. “Calling them back” - you act like this will happen overnight. What about the media and the culture - a house divided cannot stand. What is the plan to use government to get us back? What public officials are now on board and what activity is happening. Is the motivation to promote human flourishing or spiritual conversion? It sounds like a lot of the logistics need to get worked out. If this was as easy as you make it sound why did we get so far gone? We’d have to take back schools, the media, various institutions, the families, the healthcare, the financial institutions - it would all have to get a Christian makeover for a complete stabilization - are we overtaking the present powers and principalities by force and who are the current allies we can rely on and work with to get there. How about Canada with all the cultural brainwashing that’s transpired. This all sounds very Dispensational in its optimism. Is this all part of God’s plan or will only a remnant acknowledge and honor true religion and the King of Kings.

5. The biblical vision of Christs kingship applied to civil life is a political program? Who is doing the applying here? I’m not familiar with this. I’m saying the program to do this now faithfully could be very jarring. We can’t even get people to embrace true religion for the betterment of their own souls. Is the Holy Spirit going to be involved or is this the work of men on behalf of the temporary sphere. What are the safeguards to ensure we are not sacrificing the religious for the worldly? The founders embraced natural law and the practice of (and morality associated with) Christian religion. Yes, they were a willing majority. What is the plan to transform a naturally rebellious culture outside the walls of true religion’s faithful churches TODAY?

6. In the very beginning most of the most influential were not Trinitarian and over a short period of time there were many who rejected Christ outright for the Unitarian free mason god. This did not happen overnight and to get back there is not clearly defined in scripture. Magistrates are to do good but if you look at the history of the world they often do not. They should and can be called to do so. But how much direct access do we even have - that’s in question. What have been the barriers to turn Canada back to God? How are they being dealt with ? Platitudes are easy but without a God-approved plan or avenue they can be reckless. What’s the plan in 2025?

* Why have we abandoned what our fathers knew to be good, true, and necessary for liberty?” I thought you would have that answer - how about SIN? Human Depravity? God’s hidden decree. Maybe not all of our fathers had proper intentions - they were not saints or apostles. Stop deifying all of them.

What about people like Thomas Jefferson? He was a heretic. But he was an American - his form of Christianity was closer to paganism and he would have been pleased if all states eventually embraced that form of Christless Christianity - that could much more easily become mainstream over true religion if we all aren’t careful. I feel like we are being led into a trap or setup to further vilify an already naturally hated religion via its politicization and a perceived power grab. Christianity is a refuge to souls that need to be delivered from this world. If we become too aligned with the levers of power we may no longer appear a true sanctuary to the lost, meek and lowly of this world. Some things to think about.

Originally Posted by Tom
Quote
Yes, natural law flows from the Creator’s moral order, as Romans 2:14–15 shows that the law is “written on the heart.” But it is insufficient apart from special revelation. Fallen man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18). Therefore, without the corrective light of Scripture, natural law becomes a wax nose—shaped by human reason, cultural sentiment, or even pagan philosophy.

The American Founders understood this distinction. They did not see natural law as a replacement for revealed religion but as its reflection. The same men who framed the Constitution also wrote state constitutions that explicitly acknowledged the Christian Protestant religion as foundational. This was not because they distrusted reason, but because they knew reason is fallen and must be governed by divine truth.

To affirm natural law while denying the necessity of revealed religion is to cut the flower from its root—you may preserve the fragrance for a time, but it will soon wither.



2. You said:
Quote
Christian Nationalists are a distraction from the corruption in culture.

This accusation misunderstands both history and the biblical mandate for civil order.
When Christians affirm that rulers must “kiss the Son” (Psalm 2:12), they are not distracting from corruption—they are confronting its cause. The culture is corrupt precisely because rulers and citizens alike have rejected the authority of Christ over the nation.

The early American founders, from Massachusetts to Delaware, recognized that true religion was essential to good governance. That conviction did not distract them from the moral decay of their time—it was their remedy for it.
To dismiss this today as a “distraction” is to treat spiritual obedience as political overreach. But as Proverbs 14:34 declares, “Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.” The problem is not that Christians want to see righteousness applied to law; the problem is that many modern Christians have surrendered that vision.



3. You said: [quote]They seek to make every citizen acknowledge the Lordship of Christ.

That’s a distortion.
No faithful Christian—past or present—believes civil law can regenerate hearts. The goal is not coerced conversion but righteous governance under Christ’s kingship.
Early Americans did not punish unbelief; they simply expected that public servants uphold the moral and religious framework consistent with the gospel that shaped their civilization.

The Founders knew there is no neutrality in public life. Every government serves a god—either the true God or a false one. To claim the state can be “secular” is itself a religious statement—it deifies man. Christian Nationalism, in its historic sense (Voddie Baucham agrees), simply insists that nations have a duty to recognize Christ’s authority (Psalm 2:8–10; Matthew 28:18–20).



1. You said:
Quote
What will the nationalists do that has not already been established in our long-standing history?

Quite a lot, actually—but not in the way critics imagine.
Christian Nationalists, properly defined, are not inventing something new; they are calling America back to her own history—a time when her constitutions, laws, and moral expectations reflected a Protestant framework. (this is an important point).
In 1778, South Carolina declared the Christian Protestant religion to be the official religion of the state. Massachusetts empowered its legislature to fund the “public worship of God.” Delaware and Vermont required public officials to profess faith in Christ.

If that heritage is “long-standing,” then the real innovation came not from Christian Nationalists but from 20th-century secular revisionism. The 1947 Supreme Court’s reinterpretation of the First Amendment was the radical break—not those who wish to restore the founding order.



5. You said:
Quote
Christian Nationalism is building a boogeyman.

That’s an ironic charge, given that the supposed “boogeyman” is nothing more than the biblical vision of Christ’s kingship applied to civic life.
The Founders did not fear that idea—they legislated from it. They saw the magistrate as a “nursing father” to the church, in line with Isaiah 49:23. They knew civil government is a minister of God (Romans 13:4), not a morally neutral referee.

Modern critics call this dangerous, but the danger lies not in a government that acknowledges God—it lies in one that denies Him. A state that refuses to honor Christ inevitably honors idols: human autonomy, sexual perversion, or statism.

The call to restore a distinctly Christian order is not the creation of a monster; it is the return of sanity.



6. The Real Question

The issue is not whether nations will be religious—it’s which religion will govern them. The American Founders chose Christianity, not paganism.
Modern secularists have merely swapped one orthodoxy for another: the worship of man instead of the worship of God. Those who appeal to “natural law” while rejecting Christ’s Lordship end up enthroning human reason, which history shows is the cruelest master of all.

Thus, to insist on the Lordship of Christ over nations is not fanaticism—it is faithful stewardship. Anything less is rebellion disguised as moderation.



Conclusion

The American Founders were Christian nationalists in principle if not in label. They did not fear the union of Christianity and civil order, so long as it was bounded by Scripture and reason.
Their vision was not a theocracy but a Christian Constitutional Republic—a free society governed by laws that reflect God’s moral order. To reject that today is to reject the very foundation on which America was built.

So the question isn’t, as you stated: “What will Christian Nationalists do that hasn’t already been done?”
It’s, “Why have we abandoned what our fathers knew to be good, true, and necessary for liberty?”

What about people like Thomas Jefferson?

The First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”) was written to limit Congress, not the states. It prevented the federal government from creating or prohibiting religion, while leaving the states free to support or establish Christianity as they saw fit. Jefferson himself affirmed this in his correspondence after his presidency.

Last edited by Anthony C.; Tue Oct 21, 2025 8:32 PM.
Anthony C. #60001 Tue Oct 21, 2025 10:16 PM
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I indicated that my last reply was my last.i feel however, that I need to say a few things. I better let this be my last one though.

First of all, I have more respect for Pilgrim than you know. Look at how long I have been a member of this board. If I did not have respect for Pilgrim, I would never have stayed this long.
I have not been silent with Pilgrim, I have actually tried to be as honest as possible.

I have actually spend many hours researching to inform myself about this discussion.
I have no idea how I could spend more time, without neglecting other things.

I am at a loss at wondering why you think I am not speaking about both the past and how the past can inform now.

You are giving me the impression that the founding fathers and their writing, has no bearing on today.
When the fact is, it is a call to return to the founding principles that made America great.

That is the message that Voddie Baucham was about. Both spiritually and politically.

I am not sure how I could say it better than I have already.

In your number 1.). I am not even sure how you came to the conclusion that I want the state to become the Church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

That is not the governments responsibility, catechizing people is the job of the Church and family.
However, both Scripture and the founding documents of the United States, say the nation is under God, which includes the government.

Romans 13:1-7, lays out the governments responsibility.
Not the responsibility of the Church or Family. (I enjoyed Samuel Waldron’s series on this.)

You also seemed to have completely missed the fact I talked about Thomas Jefferson. Please go back and read it again.

I could talk a little more about him and a few others. But, I think it should suffice.

Nobody said anything about rectifying things overnight. That can only happen over time. In fact, although there has been pushback. President Trump, is destroying the Woke, Cultural Marxist inroads that they have made, in the here and now. Programs like DEI, that are nothing more than Woke tools are being dismantled.

Antifa has been declared a terrorist organization by President Trump. Unfortunately, they have been welcomed in Canada. I think I have talked about that in the past, so I will not rehash it.

The Church and the family, have in many cases caved into the culture around them.

When people like Voddie Baucham and Tom Ascol talk about that very thing and calling them to repentance. They get flack back even from their own denomination.

For example, Founders Ministries which is lead by Tom Ascol started because the SBC was heading away from their founders roots. Their roots are very much similar to the beliefs of CH Spurgeon and the 1689 LBCF.
Yet, Arminians and other things such as egalitarianism and even CT, made inroads in the SBC.

Many believe Founders is wasting their time and to come out from among them.
Yet, they themselves have actually gained some ground back.
Of late, they started their own seminary which was supposed to have Voddie Baucham as their President (Now replaced with Tom Ascol).

This seminary has a high priority on the Church and all their students must come with a letter from their Church and be of good standing.

They see a great need, to train up pastors with a high view of God, and His Word. Mainly because many pastors today, are weak on the Bible, and/or have compromised to the culture around them.

Recently, in a conversation over coffee my pastor was telling me about his frustration when they were trying to hire an associate pastor.

He was saying that he got a lot of applications, but most he got rid of right away.
When he got to the interview stage, he asked pointed questions and was disappointed almost every time.
These were all seminary educated from his denomination.

The Church finally found one, he is young and married with two children under two. Seems to be working out well and has been there for about a year now.

I hope that answers why society has abandoned the founding principles.
If you have watched Voddie preach enough times, I don’t think it is possible to not hear him answering the questions you asked.

I had thought I had answered them, but apparently not.

I better stop there.

Last edited by Tom; Tue Oct 21, 2025 10:28 PM.
Tom #60002 Wed Oct 22, 2025 4:48 AM
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Many Freemasons and Deists seem to borrow vocabulary terms from each other when expressing thoughts about the Creator. The words "Grand Architect" was a common Freemason expression for the Creator, especially in the letters of George Washington. That reference specifically may be based in the Freemason tradition since architecture was symbolic as it pertained to the "builders of men."

The Revolution of Belief
Founding Fathers, Deists, Orthodox Christians, and the Spiritual Context of 18th Century America
https://earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

Quote
He was known to use a Deistic vocabulary in his writings and speeches, and his references about the Holy Trinity mirror Jefferson’s almost identically – “mindless jargon” as he referred to it. Madison, perhaps more than any other president, believed strongly on the separation of church and state and was influential in his writings on the subject.

King of Kings? Not to many of these men (our founders)

As far as the OT kings and rulers, remember that God was interactive at least through the prophets and vengeance would be administered in real time. So the consequences to the unbelieving kings were often dire.

Last edited by Anthony C.; Wed Oct 22, 2025 10:25 AM.
Anthony C. #60020 Wed Oct 29, 2025 9:47 AM
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I think I became a little sensitive Tom, because I feel like you kind of isolated some of my quotes in a way that made it appear that I don’t care about the promotion of truth, justice and morality based on the realities of God’s Creation & Design. I have children that have to live in this world too and I’m empathetic to the plight of Canada that’s more far gone than we are.

What I was trying to convey is that I think the sanctity and spirituality of the church can be sacrificed by political pursuits or the appearance of such. You mention Jesus’ kingship in response to my casual language for the purpose of a semi-political discussion (you admit that the agenda is social as well as spiritual). Yes, I used terms like “boogeyman” (and “distraction”) to describe how the media and unbelieving culture will twist anything perceived as a political power grab and that’s how the world will receive it (and I’m not saying that we worry about what the world thinks - we want them delivered, not made comfortable) and you countered to some of my arguments in a way that flipped the discussion from one sphere to the next (church vs public square - where you yourself acknowledge there is a distinction) which I don’t think was in good faith (and assuming I didn’t understand the distinction between special & natural revelation) in which you responded/accused: “statement is half true”, “affirm natural law while denying the necessity of revealed religion”, etc., but my words were in no way a slight (or intended to be) against the King of Kings that reigns and will be glorified regardless (despite how He is rejected, even by a moral majority). How can they reject Christ (unregenerate) AND NOT reject His authority over the nation? You accuse me of a kind of compartmentalizing but you are doing the same thing with spiritual matters/realities by ignoring theology or making them secondary, even if that is not your intention.

With all this being said, some of the more objective reviews of King of Kings will be coming. I don’t know this source, but I thought the reviewer made some insightful and reasonable points. You can continue to respond, but I hope you’re getting a clearer picture of where I’m coming from, before you do so…

Last edited by Anthony C.; Wed Oct 29, 2025 12:48 PM.
Tom #60021 Wed Oct 29, 2025 9:51 AM
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Three Critics of King of Kings

I would like to push back a little on some of Baird’s arguments. I commend much in the book, and I applaud Baird for writing a short, accessible book that, in my estimation, adheres well to Scriptural principles. However, I disagree with the thesis that the government should promote Christianity.

Baird’s False Dilemma
Baird, like many others, seems to put forward only two options: (1) our society could be run by secular degenerates who only lead us towards implosion, or (2) our society could be ruled by Christian leaders who lead us towards another Christendom. While I share many popular criticisms about secularism, it would be wrong to assume these are our only two options. It is possible for unbelieving rulers to act in ways that honor the Lord. In Genesis 20, Abimelech is angry with Abraham because Abraham offered Sarah as his sister, almost causing Abimelech to commit adultery. In Exodus 18, Jethro offers Moses advice on judging the people by appointing judges “who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe…” Even unbelieving rulers can recognize the wisdom of our God through the created order and apply it in ways to maintain justice and order.

Baird’s Category Error
Baird argues that the government must promote the public good, but I think he fails to correctly identify the boundaries within which the government is to operate. When Paul says that government is “God’s servant for your good” (Rom 13:4), he seems to be addressing how to avoid the wrath of government. Paul’s answer is to do what is good, and you will have nothing to fear. Why? Because the government does not wield the sword in vain. It seems then that the action of government is to punish evil in the civil realm, and that is how it serves for the good of the people.
The question must then be asked: what realm does the government operate in? Baird argues that government operates in the external realm. He writes, “God designed government to deal with the external things of man, not the internal things.” There is some debate over the reformed view of two kingdoms. Some would like to see categories of internal vs external. While others would use categories of civic vs spiritual. I do not think Baird wants the state to regulate the church’s worship. He makes a strong distinction between the church and state, with which I agree. So, while he uses categories of internal vs external, I think he would also agree that the government is to operate in the civic realm. The very nature of the term “civil magistrate” suggests this. I would agree that the government is to operate in the civil realm. That looks like maintaining order and justice across a society to protect the people and their God-given rights. It follows then that the government should not wield the sword against other religions, which would be a redemptive realm issue. So then, why does the government’s duty, when stated positively as the promotion of good, include religious aspects? It seems that if we give over the power to promote religion to the government, we must also give over the sword to promote religion, a step I think few are willing to take. And one the Bible does not call for. Government exists for the good of all people inasmuch as it wields the sword not to be a “terror to good conduct, but to bad” (Rom 13:3).
It would then be in the government’s best interest to allow religions that promote morality to have free rein to cultivate a just and ordered society. Religious liberty could serve the government in promoting morality, leading to a more ordered society. Of course, the government should in no way punish what God has called good. It should not put up roadblocks to the advance of the gospel and building of Christ’s church. But it is another thing entirely to argue that the government must advance the church.

Baird’s Underestimation of the Scope of Civil Laws
Baird argues that Christianity is in the best interest of all people because through it comes morality and righteousness. I would respond with two thoughts. Firstly, Christendom does not have an outstanding track record of acting in the public’s best interest. It seems inevitable that those who wield the sword to promote Christianity will one day wield the sword to punish non-Christians. But secondly—and more importantly —I think views that argue for promoting Christianity through the government underestimate the scope of natural and civil laws. Consider the issue of homosexuality, which is a crime of a civic nature. It is a distortion of marriage. If you have attended any wedding recently, you likely heard the words “By the power vested in me by the state of [name your state].” When a pastor performs a wedding, he is acting as an agent of the state. Marriage was instituted by God before the fall, so it follows that marriage/family issues are within the realm of civic life. So, it would be within the government’s scope to protect civic life and its foundational elements, namely, the family. So, a government that outlaws homosexual marriage would be well within the purview of what Paul lays out in Romans 13. Why? Because homosexuality is a violation of the law of Christ? Well, it is, but that would be grounds for not allowing it in your church. The government should outlaw it, because it is a violation of the natural law, of which Paul says all people “have written on their heart” (Rom 2:15).1

In sum, the government exists as the servant of God to maintain order in the civil realm and has been given the necessary tools in natural law and the sword to accomplish its mission without mixing the civil and redemptive administrations of God during the church age.
More can be said about natural law, but that is beyond the scope of this post. I would define natural law as God’s will for the created order as revealed in creation

https://dbts.edu/2025/10/28/review-of-james-bairds-king-of-kings/

When Baird promotes Christian government, true religion and the public good, he has to apply to the current context and specify what true religion is, what Christian government is, and how they will apply the public good to a society that is running counter to all these things - media, institutions, education, health systems, etc - any grand plan would have to account for these things. Also government has to be severely downsized not further empowered.

So is he ruling out the Unitarian, Christ is not Lord or King (by confession or theology), unregenerate form of Christianity that was held by many of our founders and embraced by a moral majority in our day? Is he banning women from government and those who bow the knee to the pope. There sure is a lot to sort out and he doesn’t appear that invested in addressing these things.

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Promoting True Religion or Obscuring Pure Religion? Assorted Thoughts on James Baird’s King of Kings: A Reformed Guide to Christian Government. Another critical review. I’m not endorsing the author, just appreciate his thoughts, many that mirror mine…

Quote
That brings me to the heart of my comments around Baird’s book. For all the good that can come from Christian magistrates advancing the Christian gospel while in office, there are also profound ways in which this can go off the rails.

Let me get to the heart of his argument:

First Premise: Government must promote the public good.

Second Premise: As the only true religion, Christianity is part of the public good.

Conclusion: Government must promote Christianity as the only true religion.

That’s a simple enough argument. I do not deny the first premise. What I question is how Christianity functions as a “public good” in the second premise. Baird makes a convincing case for how Christianity is a public good in promoting true morality, none of which I really disagreed with. But Christianity is more than a public good. It is an eternal good. It is more than morality and traditional values, but no less than those things. What I question is the “adjective.” While the moral law is inherently and decidedly good, “Christian” denotes a regenerative reality. Therefore, we should always exercise caution before slapping “Christian” on things that reside outside of a regenerate context.

One further observation: Even if we grant that government should promote “true religion,” that is not a self-executing concept. Which means, for example, that the state granting capacious freedoms to diverse religious citizens is one very practical way it promotes true religion—by not standing in its way or obscuring pure religion.

If I were to re-work the syllogism, it would go like this:

First premise: Government must promote the public good.

Second premise: Moral laws known through the natural law promote the public good.

Conclusion: Magistrates must promote the natural law, a moral law that is fully and finally revealed within the regenerate community.

I offer this because everything the natural law posits serves to order society properly. Yes, Scripture confirms the edicts of the natural law, corrects its misapplications, clarifies it in a covenantal context, and completes the natural law’s ultimate telos. But a society that orders itself according to the natural law will, in the end, look like a nation influenced by the moral leaven of the gospel because God’s natural law and God’s revealed law are the same, albeit disclosed through different media. This allows us to execute justice and moral righteousness without blurring important distinctions that muddy the distinct callings of church and state.

If I were to identify the book’s biggest flaw, it would be its omission of covenantal progression. Now, I’m a Progressive Covenantalist, and I assume Baird is a traditional Covenantalist as a Presbyterian. This explains why he tends to overlay Old Testament horizons with a one-to-one correspondence into the New Testament. There is no discussion of the progression and unfolding of covenants; or no sustained discussion of how Israel’s theocracy dissolves in light of Christ; or why the motif of “nursing fathers” (Isaiah 49:34) that Baird relies so heavily on for his view of the civil magistrate is best interpreted in view of restoring Israel to protect the bloodline of the promised Messiah so that the nations would honor him. It would be better to understand the “nursing fathers” imagery in view of the roles of the Apostles and the role of the church (see 1 Thess. 2:7). The desire of magisteralists to blend the parental language of nursing fathers and mothers with civil authority exemplifies the hermeneutical flaw of incorporating significant portions of the Old Covenant into the New without taking into consideration the progression of the biblical storyline. This flattens the storyline of Scripture and fails to see how such categories typologically unfold in light of Christ.

Another criticism is the practical takeaways Baird wants to see in action. For example, he says on page 3, “the way someone goes about fulfilling his duty will depend greatly upon the circumstances.” But a few sentences later, he says, “By ‘promote,’ I mean the activity of encouraging, supporting, advancing, or furthering the progress of something.” Okay, fair enough. But if the government has a divine obligation to promote Christianity as the true religion for the sake of the public good, shouldn’t there be more specifics on how to do that? Why doesn’t the Bible spell that out? I’m sure that Marco Rubio preaching the gospel at Kirk’s memorial satisfies Baird’s criteria, but I’m left wondering what else a Christian magistrate should do: Penalize blasphemy, convene synods, or restrict the construction of mosques and synagogues? Or is this just about issuing Thanksgiving Day proclamations that invoke the name of Christ (appropriately phrased, I would be entirely in favor of such a thing). For clarity’s sake, it would be beneficial if such recommendations were fully explained in much more technical detail. What is off-limits and permissible for the magistrate to do when it comes to promoting true religion? I wish more explanation had been offered.

Baird states on page 24: “To speak plainly, everything wonderful about our society today sits upon the foundation of Christianity.” Yes, it does. It should be noted that the truthfulness of this claim also occurs within a context of disestablishment, which makes me question the necessity of Baird’s central argument. And, in a counterfactual reality that goes unaddressed in the book, Baird ignores the terrible consequences that have accrued throughout the history of church-state establishments (e.g., wars of religion, inquisitions, the politicization of Christianity, and Christians persecuting other Christians).

But that also brings me to another counterclaim: I see no New Testament command that the civil magistrate or government should seek to mediate the redemptive covenant. Must the civil magistrate and government honor God and seek His justice by obeying the moral law? Yes, absolutely, as all of creation must. But honoring God’s moral law is not the same as the government mediating or entangling itself in redemptive realities—especially when it lacks the mandate and safeguarding mechanisms that Jesus gave to the church (see Matt. 16:19).

Another thought that recurred throughout my reading: If Baird’s thesis is what must be, how does it function in a constitutional republic with a First Amendment like ours? Though he’s at pains to explain how far we have deviated from the Founders’ original intention to allow states to determine religious affairs on their own, the fact remains that we have a First Amendment. All fifty states have adopted its prescriptions. Baird’s vision would require repealing the First Amendment, as it would require some form of formal establishment (maybe I misread him on this; if so, I hope he corrects me). All that to say: The political theology Baird proposes will leave its proponents profoundly disappointed. After reading his volume, I’m not sure we’ve ever had a Christian magistrate who fits the bill that Baird envisions. And will we ever? And that is one more major critique I have: Political theology should not be held captive to an idealized political arrangement. Political theology must be able to absorb the fluctuations of history’s progression. It needs to work, given whatever state of affairs churches find themselves within. This is one of the attractive features, at least to me, of Baptist political theology: It does not depend on the regime’s favorability or lack of favorability to Christianity. Why? Because we see the church’s mission operating independently of the state’s mission. After reading his volume, I am unsure of how to enact his vision within our current constitutional regime. There is no political will, at all, for revising the First Amendment or restoring any church-state establishment.

And I’m still left wondering: Whose Christianity is to win the day? Protestantism? Catholicism? Finland’s current version of Lutheranism? Who adjudicates what the proper boundaries for “true religion” are? Especially on the assumption that not every officeholder will, themselves, be regenerate? We are left in the uncomfortable position of allowing pagan rulers to promote a Christianity they do not even believe in. This is one of the fatal misfortunes of the magisterial vision: It envisions a degree of stasis that defies the progression of history. It requires adjudicative mechanisms that ensure only regenerate magistrates remain in office. How likely is that to happen?


https://andrewtwalker.com/promoting-true-religion-or-obscuring-pure-religion/

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Anthony, in the responses I gave you, I can assure you I tried to reply without taking anything you said personal.
If I failed in doing that, I apologize.

You may have noticed I have not been on this thread for a while.
That is intentional, mainly because I wanted to read the book for myself.
I just received the book and plan on reading it soon.

I may or may not say something later, I am not sure yet.

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Alright, thanks Tom. Yeah, you should argue the good points. I’m not looking to shut down the conversation. Our points of emphasis are going to support our perspective. I do like you. You seem like a nice gentleman. I can get a little cranky and I’m sure you’re frustrated with some of the things you’ve shared about your own personal experiences living as a Canadian in this day and age. So I do support your efforts. I just get a little annoyed when someone (James Baird) offers what I think looks like false hope - even if it’s only with regard to natural things.

I had a brief exchange about this book on a YouTube video comment section and the response was also skeptical:

Quote
@JoshMerrick
2 days ago
Yeah, in regard to the book "King of Kings" I was disappointed to see it being promoted by Founders Ministry. Within 1689 circles, this CN movement unfortunately seems to be gaining traction and sweeping more brothers up.

What does 1689 refer to? The earlier WCF ?

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Anthony C. #60030 Sat Nov 01, 2025 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony C.
What does 1689 refer to? The earlier WCF ?
The Baptist London Confession of Faith (1689). smile


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After much back and forth on X, Pastor George brings together Pastor James Baird and Professor Darryl "D.G." Hart to discuss their disagreements over the Government Promoting Christianity.

Referenced in this Episode -

Pastor George's Article - Trying to Define Christian Nationalism

https://irreverentreverend.org/podc...uld-the-government-promote-christianity/

You Tube Comment:


Quote
@onceamusician5408
2 days ago
my answer?

NO

any form of church religion popular enough to be championed by govt is no longer Christian anyway

why? Jesus Himself said so - strait is the gate, narrow the way and FEW they are who find it. Moreover those many who claim Him are not His if they neither have the Holy Spirit nor are led by Him

and why do we the Christians need state sponsorship?

they will try to control us if they think they can pay the piper

and finally if the apostles did not have it ( state sponsorship and promotion)we do not need it

but if you mean to get in bed with the world and seek such things be my guest

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BigThumbUp There are two entities that exist in this world; The world and all that defines it, and The Church which consists of all sinful men, women, and children who have been called, regenerated, convicted of sin, led infallibly to Christ, repented of their sinfulness and sin, believed savingly upon Christ and strive to live in holiness by the sovereign work of the Spirit. THEY have been called OUT OF the world and INTO the kingdom of God. The two shall never join together nor can they for they are antithetical for:

1 John 2:15-16 (KJV) 15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


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Bite-Sized Christian Nationalism: A Review Article

Darryl G. Hart

King of Kings: A Reformed Guide to Christian Government, by James Baird. Founders Ministries, 2025, xx + 95 pages, $21.98.

The reception to James Baird’s book, King of Kings: A Reformed Guide to Christian Government, suggests that the author is either a genius or an idiot savant; either he has hit upon a truth that practically everyone else has ignored, or he has combined a few Christian aspirations into a basic textbook on good government. The book itself comes (as many evangelical publications do these days) with eight pages of endorsements from pastors, professors, and even a few attorneys and public officials. The consensus among the blurb writers (twenty-six in all) is that Baird’s explanation of government’s duty to promote Christianity as part of the public good is not only timely (since the United States is in crisis) but also reiterates basic Protestant political philosophy. As one endorsement reads, in appealing to “history, Scripture, and reason, [Baird] makes a simple case for why the civil magistrate should promote the true religion.” Although Stephen Wolfe opened the debates about Christian government with his 2022 book, The Case for Christian Nationalism, Baird seems to have scratched the itch that Wolfe exposed. The fact that Baird’s book is one-fifth the size of Wolfe’s may explain some of the appeal of King of Kings.

Another attraction comes from the book’s manner. Baird is not argumentative or theoretical. He holds the reader’s hand and walks effortlessly through syllogisms that are as obvious as they are airtight. His point is that governments have a duty to promote Christianity. Baird also quotes a host of Presbyterian and Reformed sources, from the Westminster Confession to Archibald Alexander Hodge (Charles Hodge’s son), to show he stands in line with the Reformed tradition. His style is personal, even folksy at times, and he refuses polemics. In fact, he avoids all theological labels—he will let theonomists, two-kingdoms proponents, and Kuyperians decide where his book belongs. He is simply explaining the “classical American view” of government.

The problem of avoiding arguments with other views—which would have likely made the book twice as long—is that Baird’s argument, no matter how positive and winsome, is wrong. In fact, its simplicity compounds the errors, which fall into at least two categories—ones of definition or logic and others of history.

At the heart of Baird’s conception is the language of the public good. He finds it in the twenty-third chapter of the Westminster Confession, and it informs a logical syllogism that is the backbone of his argument. The confession affirms that God ordained civil magistrates to be subject to him and rule their people for God’s glory and for “the public good” (Westminster Confession of Faith 23.1). Later, Baird deduces that because government “must promote the public good,” and because Christianity, “the only true religion,” is “part of the public good,” civil magistrates “must promote Christianity as the only true religion” (22). By including Christianity in the public good, Baird has ipso facto made Christianity part of the civil magistrate’s responsibility. Public good then is essential to Baird’s argument. He defines it as synonymous with the common good, or “public welfare,” or “the people’s welfare” (5). He asserts that this idea has been “a permanent fixture in the Western legal and political tradition,” though he does not mention that before the fourth century, among the Greeks and Romans, Christianity was hardly part of the ancients’ understanding of “public good.” Baird also finds the language of “general Welfare” in the preamble to the United States Constitution. Later when discussing the American Founding and the First Amendment, Baird asserts that the Founders wanted the state governments, not the federal authorities, to promote Christianity and that few agreed with Thomas Jefferson’s separation of church and state. He avoids entirely the reasons that led all the original states to embrace Jefferson’s position and abrogate government support for established churches (the last two establishments to disestablish religion were New Hampshire in 1819 and Massachusetts in 1833). By situating the “public good” in the Western and American political and legal traditions, Baird makes it seem like promoting Christianity has been at the heart of the West’s understanding of government’s proper function since the days of Aristotle.

Baird’s sleight of hand in relying on “public good” avoids any discussion of demographics. Public is, after all, shorthand for the people in a community or society. What happens when the American public is religiously diverse? What then constitutes the general interest of a diverse public? To be sure, the United States was overwhelmingly British and Protestant at the Founding, even as the small number of Roman Catholics and Jews practiced their faiths freely in places like Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. In the demographic mix were African slaves (almost twenty percent of the population) who could not practice their indigenous faiths. But after 1850, immigration changed fundamentally the demographics of the United States at the same time that it increased the number of non-Protestant and non-British Americans. Baird’s failure to acknowledge the country’s diversity, consequently, leaves his definition of the public good either stuck in the year 1800 or implies support for a policy of deporting non-Christian (more likely non-Protestant) Americans. To be fair, Baird admits that he has no policy prescriptions and also advises prudence when considering how the government should promote Christianity today. “We must adapt to our circumstances,” he writes, and to “our fellow citizens” (79). At the level of definitions and logic, however, Baird does not adapt his basic category of “public good” to the current circumstances of the United States.

The author’s abstractions also led to a faulty history of Christianity and government that also deceives readers into thinking that promoting Christianity as the public good will return the United States to its previous order and stability. (By another sleight of hand, Baird manufactures examples of good government from Old Testament kings, the pagan rulers, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus the Great. He does not stumble once over the anachronism of using ancient, divine-right monarchies as examples for modern republican government.) Baird quotes Protestant sources freely from John Calvin and John Owen to Charles Spurgeon and John Murray with no regard to the political circumstances of sixteenth-century Geneva, seventeenth-century England, Victorian London, or 1960s Glenside, Pennsylvania. Granted, if the purpose is to apply basic definitions, attention to different forms of government and citizenship between 1545 and 1965 might seem unnecessary (and add another hundred pages to the book). Even so, Baird might have at least paid some attention to Calvin’s relationship to Geneva’s city council and compared it to Owen’s relationship to Oliver Cromwell to see how well the Protestant governments in the past adhered to the ideal governments espoused by Calvin and Owen.

An even greater historical weakness comes when Baird fails to situate American norms for government within the broader sweep of Christian history. Again, such considerations would make a much longer book. But it would also acquaint readers with the exceptionalism of the American Founding (and why Calvin and Owen were no longer relevant for Jefferson, Adams, and Madison). Protestants who consider the church as an outsider to government have little trouble finding biblical support. Unlike the Old Testament’s divine right monarchy, the New Testament presents a people, persevering and waiting for the return of their Lord. The only political instruction they receive is to honor the emperor, a Roman official who sometimes persecuted and killed Christians. Then out of the blue came Constantine’s conversion, and almost as suddenly Christianity became the established religion. Some Christians were not pleased by the worldliness that came with ties to the state. That is why some renounced the world to become monks, and it also explains why so many reform movements before the Reformation came from monastics who wanted church officials to live and minister more like apostles than Roman governors. But from the fourth century to the eighteenth century, Christianity was preeminent in European society thanks to the symbiotic relationship between throne and altar.

The Reformation obviously upset this religious and cultural establishment. Having two or more churches within one Christendom proved contentious, even if historians sometimes go overboard blaming war on religious differences. Even in England where legal and political institutions created checks and balances that Americans celebrate in the Constitution, a Civil War between Parliament and Charles I (1640s) revealed the problems of a monarch as head of the church within the Christendom model. The Glorious Revolution of 1688 finally gave Parliament standing that it may not have had previously and resulted in a constitutional, as opposed to a divine-right, monarchy. But that did not resolve the problems of an established church and what to do with dissenters (such as Puritans and Presbyterians in England).

What the American Revolution (and its later constitutional arrangement) accomplished was both a political framework that limited the power of the civil government (with three branches) and a religious settlement that removed entanglement between churches and the state. To be sure, established churches still existed at the state level, but even these proved unworkable once, for instance, Massachusetts refused to require Unitarians in a specific town to pay taxes to support the Trinitarian pastor (or vice versa).

This fifteen-hundred-year-history is almost entirely absent from Baird’s book. He simply and somewhat breezily suggests that if today’s Protestants simply followed the ideas of theologians and pastors from the period between 1540 and 1880, Americans could recover a government that promoted Christianity as the public good. That is the heart of Baird’s deception. Political change is difficult enough in a society as large, free, wealthy, and powerful as the United States. Moving a nation from its current political configuration back in time to a golden era is impossible. But positive responses to Baird’s book indicate he has touched the nerve of nostalgia. Those reactions also suggest political and historical naiveté.

For all the defects in American government over the past thirty-five years (though many readers of Baird speak often of the “postwar consensus,” a reference to the 1950s when liberalism turned secular), the simple assertion that government needs to promote Christianity is no remedy. It has no chance of being implemented and Baird (thankfully) refuses policy recommendations. What is needed is for Christians, as much as their callings allow, to support the existing institutions that secure liberties for churches (and more) and that preserve public order. For over two hundred years Americans knew how to do that without relying on governments promoting Christianity. Where the United States has erred recently has less to do with secularization than with government overreach. That Baird can call for a government powerful enough to promote the true religion, only five years after governments ignored civil liberties to enforce public health, is well-nigh amazing. And yet, the author does not appear to be bashful in calling upon government to implement the idea of the public good affirmed by a minority of the American people.

What the American Founding and subsequent history teaches is that the United States needs less government, not more. Slapping the sticker, “Christian,” on big government only adds one more voice to the cacophony of activists who propose more government rather than less.

Darryl G. Hart is distinguished associate professor of history at Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, and serves as an elder at Hillsdale Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hillsdale, Michigan and as a member of the Committee on Christian Education. Ordained Servant Online, March, 2026

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Tom #60425 Thu Mar 12, 2026 1:18 PM
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Getting away from DG Hart who is not very solution oriented in his thinking, I found this review on natural law pretty helpful…

“natural law consists of those moral truths which are universally binding to all men at all times. For contemporary Americans, it is most readily made manifest in the Declaration of Independence’s proposition that “all men are created equal.”

- (Review) Mere Natural Law: Originalism and the Anchoring Truths of the Constitution
https://adfontesjournal.com/member-exclusive/mere-natural-law-a-review/

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