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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: MarieP] #11280
Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:43 PM
Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:43 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
By salvation I mean that moment at which one no longer is under the just condemnation of God but rather now is clothed in Christ's righteousness, having no righteousness of one's own. That would be monergistic. But then we have justification. That is by faith alone. It's when God imputes Christ's righteousness to our account. That would be which one?

What you have said above is actually all the same thing! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Justification is a one-time pronouncement by God that a sinner is no longer under condemnation, he (the sinner) having been forgiven on the basis of Christ's righteousness being imputed to him/her.

Justification is "monergistic", even though the sinner is active (conversion), in that he/she repents and believes upon Christ.

Sanctification is "synergistic", even though it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer Who guides, etc., the person to do good works.

Clear as mud? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Pilgrim] #11281
Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:58 PM
Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:58 PM
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I got it now Pilgrim. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Would to recommend the site www.monergism.com? I read an article they had posted on monergism and they were ptting it against synergism (but just when it had to do with salvation (as defined in my earlier post) and not with sanctification.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: MarieP] #11282
Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:10 PM
Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:10 PM
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John Hendryx has a great site in that he has gathered together a huge number of links of articles online. He has many from The Highway there too. One of the things that impressed me about his site is that he gives full credit for the author and original site for the articles he has there. There are others who "steal" articles for their website and never mention who wrote it or where they came from. One of "those" is "GraceOnlineLibrary". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Pilgrim] #11283
Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:23 PM
Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:23 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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Isnt man only acting out what God predestined before time?

If man HAS to do something that is a work isnt it? So does God have to rely on mans choice inorder to apply salvation?

blade

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Bladestunner316] #11284
Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:39 AM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:39 AM

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 )

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav #11285
Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:27 AM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:27 AM
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The Great White North, Eh!
Henry Offline
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The Great White North, Eh!
I think we're missing the mystery here. The synergy of God working with man through the whole process of salvation is a mystery. God is sovereign, but we are responsible. God ordains what will happen, but our wills are still active in the process. I fear we run into error, both ways, when we deny or overlook this mystery.

Last edited by Henry; Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:45 PM.

(Latin phrase goes here.)
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Bladestunner316] #11286
Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:35 AM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:35 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Bladestunner316 said:
Isnt man only acting out what God predestined before time?

If man HAS to do something that is a work isnt it? So does God have to rely on mans choice inorder to apply salvation?

blade

Blade,

Are you saying that men are but helpless puppets who do nothing of their own volition? If that is true, then no man can be justly condemned for what he does because he will be able to say at the Judgment, "I couldn't help myself; God made me do it!" But the truth is that God's predestination doesn't force anyone to do anything that isn't in accordance with their will. We see this in the crucifixion of Christ, where men most willingly nailed Jesus to the cross AND God had foreordained that they should do this exactly as they did in eternity. (Acts 2:22, 23; 3:18; 4:26-28) BOTH are true; God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

Likewise in salvation, God predestinated a certain number of sinners to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit, working in conjunction with the Word of God regenerates the spiritual dead soul of a person, giving him/her a new nature or disposition. This new nature is inclined toward God and is naturally opposed to sin; the opposite of what the old nature was. So, as a sinner naturally hates God and loves to commit sin, likewise the regenerated sinner loves God and hates sin. Consequently, this born again sinner naturally repents and turns to Christ in faith. It is NOT God the Spirit who repents and believes. It is the person who does these two things, most willingly and by choice. Men always do that which is most desirable to them at any given moment. They are never forced to do anything against their will... NEVER! It is always man's choice to do what he does.

There is no conflict here whatsoever, which the ultra hyper-Calvinists are want to find. The repentance and faith required (prerequisites) for justification are indeed gifts of God which are the fruit of regeneration. They are of grace and thus their origin is with God and not man so that no one can boast. And, it is the individual who actually repents and believes, not God. The person is responsible to repent and believe not God. In fact, ALL men are responsible to repent and believe, but only those who have been given a new nature, who have been regenerated have the desire and ability to do so. That desire and ability, again is of grace and not of man's creation. Yet there is still the necessity that man choose to repent and believe upon Christ. Those who are regenerated will do so infallibly because they are predisposed to do so. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Henry] #11287
Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:51 AM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:51 AM
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Wes Offline
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Good point Henry!

We can do nothing apart from Him and yet we are responsible to participate in the process. But how can this be? It is truly a mystery because "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." (I Cor. 13:12)

The two extremes views which have been debated over the years are: 1) man has a free will and God is simply waiting for him to "accept" Him, and 2) God is sovereign and man has no responsibility at all. The first view is often called Arminianism or Freewillism and the second one is Fatalism or Hypercalvinism.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Pilgrim] #11288
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:35 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:35 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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pilgrim said,
But the truth is that God's predestination doesn't force anyone to do anything that isn't in accordance with their will.


Blade responds,
and this doesnt sound any bit arminian?

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Bladestunner316] #11289
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:37 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:37 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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Pilgrim,
God is soverign and all powerful. Man is responsible regardless if something was predestined or not.

blade

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav #11290
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:39 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:39 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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bookmark,
with that verse I rest my case.

blade

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Henry] #11291
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:44 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:44 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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Are wills are activlly in submision to the will of God we are not puppets we are men made in the image of the creator but we are creaturs and bound by the will of the alllmighty all our pride so to speak in bening a human with unique atributes such as a will are all in debt and pride in our creator.salvation and sanctification and glorification and all the blessings of eternity are but the outworking of the will of God.

blade

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Bladestunner316] #11292
Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:38 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Quote
Bladestunner316 said:
pilgrim said,
But the truth is that God's predestination doesn't force anyone to do anything that isn't in accordance with their will.


Blade responds,
and this doesnt sound any bit arminian?

No, it doesn't "sound any bit arminian" at all. In fact, it is what historic Calvinism has always taught. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps I should have phrased it a bit differently and then you wouldn't have taken exception to it? So, I'll accept the responsibility for my poor wording and restate it for you. And then, you can respond to tell me if it sits any better with you.

But the truth is that God's predestination doesn't force anyone to do anything that is contrary to their will.

By way of example, God doesn't force anyone to sin. Men sin freely and most willingly. Likewise, God doesn't force any man's will to repent and/or believe upon Christ; He "recreates the will".

I hope this clarifies things for you now? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Pilgrim] #11293
Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:50 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:50 PM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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Pilgrim,
no worries I understand your position clearlly I would say I would phrase it more along the lines of God forms the will to comply with whatever he has predestined for that individual.

blade

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Bladestunner316] #11294
Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:01 PM
Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:01 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Bladestunner316 said:
Pilgrim,
no worries I understand your position clearlly I would say I would phrase it more along the lines of God forms the will to comply with whatever he has predestined for that individual.

blade

Blade,

The only objection that I have with how you prefer to phrase it is that the "will" is not an independent entity. The will is at the beck and call of the intellect and affections and does not operate independently of them. Thus God does not "form the will", but rather uses the intellect and affections to do so. But most importantly, is that God never "forces" the will of man to do that which is contrary to it. Again, I would point to those texts in Acts which describe the crucifixion which was done according to the "determinate counsel and foreknowledge" of God. Yet, those who particpated in that crucifixion did so by a deliberate choice on their part and that most willingly.

<p align="center"><font size="4">[color:"blue"]The Westminster Confession of Faith[/color]</font>
Chapter IX
Of Free Will
</p>
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.[10]

8. Col. 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom. 6:6-7
9. Phil. 2:13; Rom. 6:14, 17-19, 22
10. Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:14-25; I John 1:8, 10

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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